Hardware Analysis - Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

McFly — 2009-02-04T23:52:57-05:00

dr electron Jan 17, 2009, 08:50am PST
He's like a reverse barometer of what you need to do.

It's pronounced "thermometer."

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Gerritt — 2009-01-18T03:25:53-05:00

dr electron said:

OMG First of all I WROTE 3 books about static electricity before I graduated college. I AM the world's foremost authority ON the issue.

EVERYTHING Patrick O'Furniture says is wrong. It's astounding... He's like a reverse barometer of what you need to do.

First off, spraying soapy water on your carpet will likely generate so MUCH static electricity that it will KILL you just by walking into your house and touching a doorknob. (Not to mention, make you more likely to slip and fall should you ever need to suddenly sprint for some unknown reason)

In my first paper, "Electrons, the positive side of negativity" I wrote about the dangers of soapy water in spray bottles. I can't believe you guys haven't read it because it's pretty much standard reading for any physics major now.

PLEASE, keep your mouth shut if you don't know you're talking about, you're embarrassing yourself and MOST likely KILLING people in the process.

As the self proclaimed worlds foremost authority on anything, you have to recognize that Patrick wasn't totally wrong about everything.

Please list the books that are standard reading for anyone, much less ANY physics major, as most of physics has nothing to do with ESD.

Please indicate how spraying a mild solution of emulsifiers on a conductive surface constitutes a life threatening hazard.

Though it is recognized that the "atomization" or separation of a solution can generate static electricity, by the time the solution hits the conductive surface there is little or no residual electrical effect, as long as the path to ground is less resistive than is necessary for the proper discharge of the voltage build up, which is determined by a simple formula for Static or Direct Current electricity as expressed by the V=I*R formula that indicates that the resistance to ground becomes less given the higher voltage, thus reducing the life threatening AMPERAGE necessary to cause life threatening discharge.

I would love to know why you joined us here at HWA just to make this ambiguous and incorrect posting....but that's just me.

Pease support your asertations in a manner that is supportive of your self proclaimed "expert" status.

BTW: I dogpiled your mentioned seminal paper on "Electrons, the positive side of negativity" and though I came up with several pages of partial hits, nothing came up to support your assertations, at all. A link to your work would be apprecated.

If you can provide this information, I will be more than happy to audit your expressed expertese. If not, then take your own advice.
Thank you.

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

dr electron — 2009-01-17T16:50:10-05:00

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Gerritt — 2008-12-31T02:32:34-05:00

John,
In reference to your DEC 18 Posting:
Anti Static mats and wraps ARE CONDUCTIVE, but need a proper path to GND in order to work Properly. If you are carrying a 200KV charge, but are wearing rubber soled shoes, then there is no path to the mat, or to the attached GND, so you will still discharge through the connected peripheral device or computer chassis. Having the chassis itself on a ESD (anti-static) mat still leaves the connected peripheral device exposed as the path to GND is still through the components attached to the MB vs. the chassis.

In the case of Anti-static wraps, there are emulsifiers (sp) that prevent the buildup of high levels of static by being conductive on a level that disperses them prior to thier being damaging. I recall a seminar I took back in the '80s on "Pink Poly" (a early ESD resistant packaging material that is still in use) in which it was shown that 3' of cellophane tape could carry upwards of 300KV upon being peeled from the roll, but the addition of the emulsifier reduced this to manageable levels.

In the case of both mats and wraps, the effectiveness does leech out over time and need to be replace periodicly, the time frames vary with the product.

All in all, eliminating or reducing the static producing capabilities in the general area of the computer is a very viable option, in which case spraying an emulsive agent such as dish soap in low concentrations is a good solution.

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

John Condry — 2008-12-25T18:23:42-05:00

If you don't touch the PC and don't feel that discharge, how do you know it's a static issue? It could be that the chair creates a vibration that shakes a loose wire everytime you get up.

Although it is theoretically possible for a static differential to travel across static-prone materials (like your carpet) because the way static works by the transfer of electrons from one non-grounded surface to another. As you walk along your carpet or rustle the cloth cover of your chair, you collect free electrons from those surfaces building a negative charge on your body. The discharge of static is the sudden transfer of that differential into a non-grounded metallic or wet object with which there is a strong enough differential to facilitate the discharge, or to a grounded metallic object.

There has to be a charge differential, and it's usually between your body and those surfaces. It could, however, build between different areas of the same surface and discharge itself into your pc. However, I've never seen this happen.

How this would relate to your scenario in either case is that these charges will discharge very easily into any metal object (doorknob, metal desk, PC) and to a lesser degree, objects with a high water content (water itself, other people). If you were to build up this charge and touch a PC which is not properly grounded, the resulting discharge will flood the electronic components, crashing the PC and very possibly damaging the integrated circuits. However, a decent PSU also has a shut-down feature which is what is really turning off your PC when you shock it. This doesn't preclude, however, the danger of damage. In any case, if your PC is properly grounded, the charge will go through the metal of the case, into the PSU, and then into the ground wire to be discharge to earth. This doesn't mean that the PSU won't still shut down your PC when you shock it, but you won't damage the PC because the shock will not go into the components of the PC (electricity takes a route very close to the path of least resistance to ground).

If the problem you are having is static, it sounds to me like your PC is not properly grounded. I don't think you could send a charge differential across the room to such a degree that it would shut down a properly-grounded PC. Try plugging it into other outlets. However, the electrical system of your house is most likely grounded in one spot, and if the connection to that ground is broken, then every outlet will have the same problem. Also, try putting your computer onto an insulating material. I have a metal-framed desk with a glass desktop. My PC was touching the metal frame and rebooted every time I built up a charge and touched my desk. Moving it a few inches to that the PC was entirely on the glass fixed the issue. Also, wood is an excellent insulator. If your desk is entirely metal, then you should be able to get a rubber mat to place under your PC. Don't use household plastics, as they don't conduct electricity THROUGH the material, but can possibly conduct it along the surface. This doesn't apply to anything you might find in a store labeled as an anti-static mat.

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Mike Brown — 2008-12-25T17:13:38-05:00

I have a similar, but stranger, problem.

I have a cloth-covered recliner in my den, about 3 ft away from my PC case. About every third time I get up out of the recliner, the static I generate will reboot my PC. This occurs before I ever touch the case, the keyboard, the mouse, etc. It's as if the static leaps throgh the air itself to zap the PC.

So far, it hasn't harmed my computer, but it's just a matter of time. I'm very puzzled by this - the chair isn't "connected" in any way to the PC or the wooden desk - no wires, carpets, etc. The PC sits 'in' the desk, so it's not even touching the same floor.

Is this still a grounding issue?

Thanks,

Mike B

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

John Condry — 2008-12-18T09:23:28-05:00

Sean B said:

How absurd is it if it provides a permanent solution to his problem?

An antistatic chair mat would even suffice to permanently solve it.

Not as absurd as your suggestions. First, you can't ground ANYTHING in anti-static wrap. You are insulating the object, which is the exact opposite of grounding it. You COULD insulate the computer from touching a metallic part of the desk (or just keep all metal components on the glass) but the mouse will still be a problem unless you get a wireless one.

Secondly, an anti-static mat won't help matters either unless he LIVES on it. If he gets up and walks across the room and builds up a nice 200,000 volt charge on his skin and steps onto the mat, he will still have the charge which will then DISCHARGE as soon as he touches metal again. Anti-static mats ONLY prevent you from building up a charge from the movement of one's chair and feet across a carpet.

MY suggestion to YOU would be to learn a little about electricity before you continue making suggestions that might cost people (who are under the false impression that you know something of which you speak) money.

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Gerritt — 2005-02-28T20:30:49-05:00

I'm not sure about the GWN (Canada), but that third (roundish) do-hicky on the plug is supposed to be ground. You can get a cheap little device called a Ground Fault Tester, to see if you are getting a good ground. I've seen these deltas when the computer is plugged into a UPS (which isolates the ground plane through transformer to give a pseudo ground) and having other devices plugged into the computer that did not share the same "float". Same problem on building to building copper networks by the way.

So it may be a ground float, vs. static issue.

PICK A SCREW!

Run a chassis ground wire between all peripheral devices and the computer, and desktop as well.

Any case screw on the computer that makes metal to metal contact to the desk leg, to the printer, etc...
This will take care of the static issue as well as long as that third plug lug actually makes ground.

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

R W — 2005-02-26T11:16:29-05:00

There could be an earth problem, check that the mainboard is not touching the case bottom etc.

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Jaime Yap — 2005-02-20T04:29:06-05:00

I had (and still have) a similar problem. I have gone through 3 motherboards. My problem however turned out to be that my wall outlet wasnt grounded properly. Everyone occasionally gets static shocks, but for your computer to shock you so frequently (as mine was) it suggests to me that it isn't that you are building up charge every 5 mins but that your outlet's wiring may be funky. You should do a few things:
1) If your computer is plugged into a surge protector or a UPS, get a new 'not cheap' one just to make sure that that isnt whats responsible for your lack of grounding.
2)Verify that your wall outlet is properly grounded. You should ask an electrician to help you out with this. My problem was that my computer would randomly become charged and shock me (and fry my motherboard), and then at other times (in between motherboard replacements) be perfectly normal. When you test the outlet you should make sure nothing special happens when you actually draw power from it. You dont want to just be satisfied by saying its grounded when nothing is plugged in.
3) Make sure your power supply isnt faulty.
4)If indeed you are the static carrier and your computer setup is fine, get an anti static wrist band. It helps! You ground it to your case and put it on your wrist. It slowly grounds any charge that you may have built up through the case and into the grounding wire. If your wiring is fine it shouldnt affect your motherboard at all.

Hope that helps!

P.S Check if your motherboard is under warranty. You can RMA it back to them and ask for a cross shipment. You could ahve a working motherboard in as little as 4 days!!

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

OCGW — 2005-02-15T19:26:48-05:00

Sorry to hear that

OCGW

PEACE

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Darshan Daurka — 2005-02-15T00:20:51-05:00

The humidifier cost me about $70 CAD - but turns out it didn't help. I'm getting shocks again and my motherboard seems to be dead. My computer no longer posts. I went to move the mouse, I heard the little pop in the speakers and then I heard 2 or 3 crackles on the motherboard. The computer restarted but didn't post. I guess I have to return the humidifier! I should've just tried the spraying thing first. I'll try that this time but now I'm not sure what to do about the motherboard!

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

Patrick O'Furniture — 2005-02-09T23:37:53-05:00

Arcing and sparking; I love it! Hey, G., your friend is a riot! A good friend of mine decided to try to jump-start his motorcycle with his Jeep; I tried to talk him out of it over the phone (I was away on a business trip), but he was convinced that he knew what he was doing, because he had seen me do the same thing two years before (we were next-door neighbors).

As you've guessed by now, he incinerated both the Jeep AND the motorcycle; his wife was so angry, she had them both crushed and left in the driveway while he was at work the following Wednesday. She hung a sign on them that read, "Beware of Husband", and dozens of people came by to have their picture taken while standing in the driveway between the two burned out hulks, ESPECIALLY women. The junk was gone the next Monday night, but the wife got her point across, and the neighbor decided that sometimes, discretion really IS the better part of valor.

In fact, something good came from all of that; I introduced myself to one of the women (a flight attendant) who showed up that Saturday, and we were together for more than four years, until she transferred to another city, to be closer to her elderly parents. After she moved, I asked the neighbor if he was planning on incinerating anything else; I figured that was just as good a way as any to find a new girlfriend!

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

McFly — 2005-02-09T22:35:39-05:00

My buddy one time was trying to install cold cathodes, and he didn't want to drill a nice hole for the switch,
so he pried apart an area on the back and created what could only be called "a bitch-rigged" hole for the switch.

Well, he didn't quite notice that the contacts on the switch were also in contact with the case, so when he said "Here we go!" and switched it on, not only did the lights not come on, but his case shorted the circuit and his whole PC shut straight off.

He's lucky he didn't permafry anything.

Re: Computer rebooting due to static shocks!

OCGW — 2005-02-09T22:31:16-05:00

WoW, thanks Pat

We all like a "pat on the back" once in a while

You know, moisture in the air makes it feel warmer, not bad in the winter

Darshan Daurka, glad it worked out for you

Hey, how much did the humidifier cost?

OCGW

PEACE