Hardware Analysis - Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Adriano Soares — 2006-11-13T22:05:19-05:00

After all that propaganda about security against pyrate copies, the pyrates will be extremely happy to see fake copies recognised as legitimate

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

John Ingram — 2006-11-02T20:26:51-05:00

Gord Horton said:

Cancel my last comment as it was already posted. This is what happens when you log on with a form fill program you try to save with the logon info but forget to delete the text. OOPS

Hey, technology and software are a bummer, because the humans who write the software have no real life input. Hence, ever look down a list of anything on a website and then wanted to go to page 2 only to find the page numbers/next/last are at the TOP of the list, so you have to scroll up, or if your so inclined, click on 'top' and then scroll down instead.

And I and you could give a million other ways you can tell that regular people are not involved. Hence, technology turn off in so many ways currently,

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Gord Horton — 2006-11-02T15:57:58-05:00

Cancel my last comment as it was already posted. This is what happens when you log on with a form fill program you try to save with the logon info but forget to delete the text. OOPS

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Gord Horton — 2006-11-02T15:46:09-05:00

John,
I quite agree with most of what you say. Xp has everything most people need. I was merely pointing out the fact that eventually the market will get flooded with Vista. Not necessarily in the next 12-18 months, but "eventually"( depending on sales if you want to use that as a measure). Microsoft can put anything in their software they want and sooner or later it will become the standard. One day they will stop the support for XP and force everyone to change.
Not a truer statement is made when you say there is no reason to switch to Vista except for gaming. The change may be slow especially if microsoft thinks that gaming features will do the trick. Cost is not the only factor here. My kids (12 & 13) both have computers but they and all their friends don't play games on computers. It is Xboxes, Ps2's and the like that they use for gaming. The new trend for our next generation of consumers?

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

john albrich — 2006-10-15T02:43:34-05:00

For some info on Vista license concerns, See Payton's thread at

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/62662

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

john albrich — 2006-10-13T01:37:12-05:00

Some comments regarding software licenses and EULAs, because people seem to think there's one OEM EULA and one generic EULA.

There isn't.

You can't "Google-up" THE EULA for a specific installation. The online EULA copies are templates...they are not necessarily identical to EULAs actually imposed.

The EULA can be different for every situation. There is no one single EULA that covers every install. The XP (Retail) EULA isn't identical to the XP OEM EULA. The XPpro Retail EULA from 3 months ago may not be the same as the XPpro Retail EULA for a package bought today.

EXAMPLES OF SIGNIFICANT EULA DIFFERENCES:

EXAMPLE 1: DEVICE CONNECTIONS ( I bet this one shocks some people) :

XPhome RETAIL: This is from a specific XPhome (Retail) EULA:

1.3 Device Connections. You may permit a maximum of five (5) computers or other
electronic devices (each a "Device" ) to connect to the Workstation Computer to utilize one or more of the following services of the Software: File Services, Print Services, Internet Information Services, and remote access (including connection sharing and telephony services)

XPpro OEM: Same item from EULA for the XPpro OEM computer I'm using right now:

1.4 Device Connections. You may permit a maximum of ten (10) computers or other
electronic devices (each a "Device" ) to connect to the COMPUTER to utilize one or more of the following services of the SOFTWARE:File Services, Print Services, Internet Information Services, Internet Connection Sharing and telephony services.

EXAMPLE 2: TRANSFER TO A DIFFERENT COMPUTER

XPhome RETAIL:

1.1 Installation and use. You may install, use, access, display and run one copy of the Software on a single computer, such as a workstation, terminal or other device ("Workstation Computer" ) The Software may not be used by more than one processor at any one time on ANY single Workstation Computer.

XPpro OEM:

1.2 SOFTWARE as a Component of the COMPUTER - Transfer.
This license may not be shared, transferred to or used concurrently on different computers. The SOFTWARE is licensed with the COMPUTER as a single integrated product and may only be used with the COMPUTER.If the SOFTWARE is not accompanied by HARDWARE, you may not use the SOFTWARE. You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA only as part of a permanent sale or transfer of the COMPUTER,

This OEM EULA clearly shows the software is NOT transferable to any other computer, EVEN IF it is the only copy used and the original computer is destroyed..

There is a further distinction between the "Academic Editions" of the EULAs. For example: Under the Academic Edition EULA, once you are no longer a student/teacher/etc you MUST buy another license to continue using that copy of Windowx.

EXAMPLE 3: LIMIT ON NUMBER OF PROCESSORS (this one may shock you too)

XPhome RETAIL
1.1 Installation and use. You may install, use, access, display and run one copy of the Software on a single computer, such as a workstation, terminal or other device ("Workstation Computer" ) The Software MAY NOT BE USED BY MORE THAN ONE PROCESSOR AT ANY ONE TIME on any single Workstation Computer.

XPpro OEM
1.1 Installation and use. You may install, use, access,display and run one copy of the SOFTWARE on the COMPUTER.The SOFTWARE MAY NOT BE USED BY MORE THAN TWO (2) PROCESSORS AT ANY ONE TIME ON THE COMPUTER, unless a higher number is indicated on the COA.

Both these 1.1 articles clearly state that even if the software/OS supports multiple processors, you are limited by the respective EULA. I SUSPECT that Microsoft probably considers a "CORE" the same as a "PROCESSOR". So, there may be legal problems with using multi-core processors in your system. Dual-cores for XPhome Retail may not be allowed, and more than Dual-core may not be allowed for this XPpro OEM. But, I may be wrong. This will need to be addressed by Microsoft, but it is up to the END USER to make sure he/she is in compliance with the EULAs.

There is no one single OEM EULA, etc. It varies from vendor to vendor depending on its contracts with Microsoft. There are corporate licenses, government licenses, Retail licenses,and more...and there are multiple versions of each. Plus, as seen above, the COA (Certificate Of Authenticity) can modify the EULA. And, as Brian Pope noted, some terms in a EULA may be rendered unenforceable depending on the country. EULAs are also affected at the state/province level.

Statutory laws and regulations are considered superior to contracts, licenses, etc.

To be certain of the current terms of YOUR license(s) ... you must read YOUR particular documents and inquire with Microsoft as to any modifications since your purchase. You should also know that Windows components such as Internet Explorer, Network Services, Outlook Express, etc. have their OWN EULAs.

edited to remove auto-smilies
edited to add EXAMPLE 3 LIMIT ON NUMBER OF PROCESSORS

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

john albrich — 2006-10-13T00:10:01-05:00

By Peter Lambert Oct 05, 2006, 01:15 PM
OK, so taking this latest "innovation" from Mr Gates' gang, if Ford or GM adopt the same policy does that mean my car would crash, the wheels fall off, or something equally drastic if I did not get it serviced by one of their garages within 30 days of the due date?

It would also mean that your airbags (security) will no longer deploy, your keys (OS) might no longer work, and if you install a new fuel-efficient engine (CPU) you may have to get new keys (note that new "smart" car keys can cost > US$150 per key)

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Wayne Peterson — 2006-10-10T19:30:29-05:00

Personally, I'm sick of paying good money for my software, following the terms of the license, and still being treated like I'm doing something wrong.

I usually do a reinstall of Windows about every 9 months or so. I did one last month and when the activate windows screen came up I told it to go ahead and activate. Well I get the message that it can't activate me over the internet and I will have to call. So I make the call (get a busy signal the first five times), then I have to wait on hold for about 45 minutes. When I finally get a person, they tell me I have installed too many times and they aren't going to let me reactivate. After 3 hours of arguing with different people, they threatened to sue me for piracy (and this was after I had faxed them a copy of my receipt. I never throw them away). So now I have a copy of Windows XP that I paid for that I can no longer legally use, just because MS feels like it.

Luckly I had a laptop that I had converted to Linux and just used the XP product key that came with it. I would switch my desktop to Linux but I'm a gamer and unfortunatly there just are not that many native Linux game releases. So I'm stuck with MS for now. But I will hold off on buying Vista as long as I can. Maybe by then I won't need to.

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

John Ingram — 2006-10-09T22:08:40-05:00

Hans Moleman:

Problem is nobody's buying home PC's at the moment to talk of, and in any event with Vista installed I doubt PC's will be under �1,000 and �700 is about the max home buyers will pay for a PC based on various survey's, and Vista needs a beefy system and any game for Vista is probably going to need a �400 DX10 card. So either the PC will have all that and be at least �1,2000 or it won't and you will still have to pay that much by upgrading the PC you buy (which average gamers don't do - that's if the PC game market has any of them left, the market is shrinking so quickly it may only be hardcore gamers left by this time next year!)

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Hans Moleman — 2006-10-09T20:51:06-05:00

Well unfortunatley MS will probably pull the same crap they did with Me. HP, Dell, and the other big brands will sell computers with Vista preinstalled. That way they'll force it on the public. If it really bombs it may dissapear the way Windows Me did after about a year. I seriously doubt the companies making games will force you to use Vista. It would be stupid for them to limit their audience. Even now many games will still run on a Windows 2000 and occasionally Windows 98 system.

I am truly baffled by people who claim gamers should switch to Linux. Aside from the excessive amount of time it takes to get Linux up and running, installing games is a pain in the a**. Some sites have instructions on how to install games in Linux, but those instructions vary from one distro to the next.

I tried to install NWN on my laptop while I was running Ubuntu and it was a massive waste of time. I followed the instructions as well as I could. The instructions were clearly for a different distro although it didn't specify which one. I'm sure I could have figured it out if I wasted a few more days screwing around, but why should I?

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

some guy — 2006-10-09T03:43:17-05:00

ITGL72 said:

I'm a gamer, DX10 is coming, I will need vista.

Thats the stupidest thing any one said in here. You are the people killing the computer industry. You are willing to give up rights TO PLAY A STUPID GAME! Get off your lazy ass and go learn Freebsd or Linux with Wine/Cedega for you can play DX10 games and not be stuck in a whore of an OS called Windows!

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Bitmap — 2006-10-07T18:58:38-05:00

John Ingram said:

I'll just say 'Bobby' this time!

You support my argument more than you think. because that is my whole point. People won't upgrade to a Vista/DX10 card system (notice I said DX10 card - because games are going to demand that card as well as the DX10) so PC game sales will be even lower next year than this year, just like this year is nearly 40% down on last year, and those sales will be so low and Vista will have such a low uptake at the start that they will not 'slow down', they will give up. They will go over to console, they will re-train programmers, they will not update their PC tools, PC gaming magazines will die, websites will take PC gaming off their pages as there will no news to report.

So nothing is going to 'slow down' - it's going to 'move on'. Don't forget part of the reason for low PC game sales is the 60% decline in PC product! So publishers are already giving up or moving on. The PC games market might just about struggle through next year if we see better product from the smaller independents and both the Wii and the PS3 don't do very good numbers on release. Then, and only then, will publishers still look on PC as a 'possibility' and may still support it in a small way, allowing for at least the possibility of a PC gaming renaissance - but of course the odds of that happening are incredibly small..

Funny... I plan on upgrading as soon as, or shortly after, DirectX 10 cards are released, since I see no point in upgrading my card now with a new API out that today's cards dont support. I don't speak for everyone though, so who's to say who will and who won't upgrade?

Also, look at the trends. If I'm correct, the market for PC vs Console fluxuates. The console platform seems a bit more stable as far as its popularity. But the PC's popularity for games seems to go up and down. It rocked when Doom 3 was released, then steadily declined, until the first asthetically pleasing realtime 3D games were released, then declined again, and so forth. It's a series of surges. We're just waiting on the next one.

And yes, I do see exactly where you're coming from, but there are alternative views and possibilities, most of which, neither of us have probably thought of.

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

John Bailey — 2006-10-07T09:31:49-05:00

I'm quite surprised the gaming industry hasn't taken the lead on this. I remember the old days when people would explicitly run games under DOS instead of Windows to gain a performance advantage. With the clear performance advantage given by Linux, I really surprised that more games are not ported to the Linux OS.

People don't know Linux. How the hell do you install a game on Linux?

It varies. The most complicated way is to use the source code. But many software developers are using binary distributions. With some, you can just use the package manager. For free games and apps only I'm afraid, and they have to be included in the list of software supplied by the people who maintain that source. It can however be as easy as double clicking the executable which then installs everything. Linux may have a way to go, but its getting there much faster than you might think.

Why would game makers cater to less than 1% of the market? And who are you to say there'd be a performance advantage? Windows supports DirectX, OpenGL (and other API's, now since antiquated).

Its impossible to say even roughly what the user base of Linux is. It may be possible to make an educated guess based on the respose to surveys or server logs I suppose. Many have bought machines pre installed with Windows and then installed Linux, some get their copy from magazine cover disks, and some download or buy the disks, others get disks from friends. And then there are those who use old machines to run Linux when they don't meet the spec for the later versions of Windows and are not upgradeable to the required extent. So sales figures are meaningless. Macs can be quantified by the number of computers sold, but Windows and Linux can't because there is more than one OS for AMD/Intel based computers.

Linux does support OpenGL and a few others of it's own I think. Also, it is possible to run some games and Windows apps under Linux with Wine or Cedega on Linux to mimmic Windows systems to the software. By no means perfect, but getting better as time moves on.

From direct personal experience, I have used Neverwinter Nights on both a Windows XP machine and a Linux Fedora core 5 machine<same computer, different OS> The Linux version does indeed run faster. Possibly even bertter if more effort were put into making a more streamlined Linux client.

Windows has Windows Installer, which makes it pretty easy for people to get games installed on their systems. Linux does not. Windows has an advanced and fast driver model. Linux does not.

Linux also has installers. I seem to remember someone mentioning install shield for Linux. Linux driver support may not be at quite the same point as Windows, but it is getting better. Nvidia and ATI are both supporting Linux at the moment. I think Lenovo is also selling laptops with Linux. And as more people get exposure to it, they and more hardware vendors will come on board. Linux might very well become the gamer's OS if some of the stories I have been reading online about Vista's performance in games have any truth in them. I'll reserve judgement until Vista comes out and DX 10 is common enough to make it worthwhile for games to support it. For the next few years though, DX10 will be in limbo as people either stay with XP, wait to upgrade, or go elsewhere.

I will agree with you that not many people "know Linux" in the sense that it takes more effort to set things up and a little more effort to get things fixed when they go wrong if you are a long time Windows user. But for beginners on either system, it can be difficult. And some distros such as Linspire are making a major effort to solve this problem. Their click and run service has both free and commercial software available. Choose the software and wait for it to download and install its self. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the commercial places would be happy to provid a non click and run version with proof of purchase. They want to attract new customers, so are more likely to be interested in making life as easy as possible. And money from a Linux user is just as good as that from a Windows user.

Making a product to sell via normal retail outlets is incredibly expensive, but selling mail order or downloadable software is very cheap. Valve seems to be doing a fairly good trade this way. Back in the early days of home computing, many software companies started out as mail order only. Anybody remember Doom? It started off as a shareware company which later moved to packaged retail versions.

When did you last use Linux? I've been in the habit of trying it out whenever I get a new hard drive, so once every few years. The current crop of Linux distros seem to be pretty impressive. Far better than the last time I tried it. XP came out in 2001, while Linux has updates much more frequently, and users have the freedom to change distros and upgrade every chance they get if they so desire.

If they purchased a tower at an outstandingly low price, but it came with an illegitimate copy of Windows, then they should pay for the copy of Windows. They would've paid for it if they'd bought a computer with a legitimate one, anyways.

Depends... It could be a refurbished system. It is quite common for small businesses to buy job lots of ex corporate systems, wipe the drives and install a legit copy of Windows on it for less than the price of a new PC. The second hand laptop sector is particularly common. Its also quite possible to go to a small to medium system maker who will build to order and specify either a blank hard drive or a legit copy of XP OEM. Supplying dodgy software is a sure way to go out of business fast. Some may even do the retail version for a bit extra. Not everybody uses brand name machines. And not every small scale system builder is a crook.

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

Reason — 2006-10-06T19:07:31-05:00

Bobby Phillipps said:

Big Beavis said:

A_Pickle said:

Do I think WGA is good? Well, I don't necessarily think it's bad. For some, strange reason, I've never had a problem with it.

Data is not the plural of anecdote.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Pickle's experience is an anecdote - he personally has had no problem with WGA. This does not mean everybody with a legit copy of Windows has had no problems with WGA. Therefore, it's not right to extrapolate the experience of one to that of many. The flip side of that is that it's perfectly fair for Pickle to accept the WGA - why shouldn't he? It works properly for him, end of story.

MS does have a right to protect their product. However, intentionally reducing security features - a punitive measure - introduces the risk that false positives will harm legit customers, and that's where they are wrong. They either need to make damn sure there are NEVER any false positives (unlikely if not impossible, IMO), or else find a different, less- or non-punitive method of preventing unauthorized use of their product.

Re: Re: Microsoft�s Genuine Advantage, your personal information exposed?

John Ingram — 2006-10-06T18:18:41-05:00