Hardware Analysis - Re: A case against video games?

Re: Re: A case against video games?

dark41 — 2007-06-23T17:33:15-05:00

John Ingram said:

Dark, all your comments prove is how we hardcore gamers have become such a small minority that we do not understand gaming any more....

No, my comments prove nothing. What I'm pointing out is that there is still a niche for shoot-em-up games as LAN parties still use them almost exclusively. We've sponsored a few LAN parties in the past because we are interested in supporting this niche of PC user. As long as the niche exists, game manufacturers would be stupid to stop addressing it.

I don't think game manufacturers care if every game they make tops the list of most sold games. As long as they sell enough to make a decent profit, they'll keep making them and all your numbers are irrelevant. Sure, game manufacturers would love for a few of their titles to make a huge impact, but I don't think they expect every title to revolutionize gaming. When the minority is so small that it no longer supplies these manufacturers with a profit, they'll quit making the game. IE: Its a shame that NCAA football and basketball games are no longer made as they were a couple of my favs. I couldn't care less what games other people play, as long as there are enough to justify making the games that I like to play.

I'm not a hardcore gamer. I play a few games fairly regularly. My favorites are none that you've listed. I like NFL football and NBA basketball (EA Sports), Civilization, and racing games (NFS and V8 Supercars). I've never played a Zoo Tycoon game (and doubt I ever will) and can't stand the Sims. Its not a matter of being out of touch. Its a matter of personal preference. To each their own.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

John Ingram — 2007-06-23T13:33:10-05:00

Re; 2027 link:

And from the part on FPS's - could have been copied from one of my messages above! (Except I have been saying change needs to happen NOW!)

First-Person Shooters
As envisioned by Halo 3 Design Lead Jaime Griesemer

"At some point in the next 20 years, people are going to get tired of fighting aliens, Nazis, zombies, and terrorists. It's a problem that is going to be difficult to solve not because game developers lack imagination or publishers are unwilling to take risks, but because there just aren't that many other settings you can use for a traditional [first-person shooter (FPS)]. You need guns...and lots of enemies to kill. So you can't do a good FPS about the mafia or a realistic crime thriller where each death is important and meaningful.... [This means] your options are limited to a couple historic wars, a present-day setting, and sci-fi.

"As a result, I think you are going to see a lot of FPS games drop the "S" and start making action games from the first-person perspective that don't have guns in them. Call them FPX games. If you get rid of the reliance on guns, you are free to explore a lot more settings and gameplay variety. At some point, somebody is going to do a really successful first-person climbing game or something and the genre is going to blow up."

I said 'Sleepless in Seattle' RPG, rather than a climbing game, but the idea's the same - new genres or the death of PC gaming. It's that simple (hard!)!

Re: Re: A case against video games?

angryhipy — 2007-06-23T12:57:26-05:00

Here you go. A 7 part article of interviews with game designers, on where they think gaming is gonna be in 2027. It's 6 AM I just woke up in a chair so I'm still too groggy to read it but I will later. Anyway here's the link.

The Future Of Video Gaming
The guy who designed one of last year's biggest blockbusters hits the hay each night dreaming about the ultimate game. He just can't make it happen yet. "It's a world that can flip upside down in a second and change from an empowering fantasy to a dreadful nightmare," Cliff Bleszinski, lead designer of Epic's Gears of War, says of his dream game. "It all hinges on thoughts and impulses�not on button presses. The biggest obstacle we're facing now is one of interface. We need a significant advance in this area for gaming to truly allow for an interactive landscape of dreams."

How long until Bleszinski's dream comes true? Answering that question is just one of the goals of this months-in-the-making cover story. We've asked experts across the industry to track the next 20 years of everything from game-design trends to the evolution of your living room. A two-decade forecast, we figure, is near-term enough to be tangible (we're staying away from silly sci-fi stuff) but far enough out to fire up your imagination. And maybe give you some kick-ass dreams, too.

Your trip to 2027 begins now.... http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3160292

Re: Re: A case against video games?

John Ingram — 2007-06-22T17:09:08-05:00

Dark, all your comments prove is how we hardcore gamers have become such a small minority that we do not understand gaming any more. The Sims plus add-ons and the Tycoon games outsell our Half Lifes 2's and our Neverwinter Nights 2 and our Command and Conquer 3 by around 500-1000%, and we are now so out of touch of 'mainstream gaming' that we are in a different world now. there used to be 10 times more of us and we used to BE PC gaming, but we're on the periphery now. Whereas Manhunt 2 may have sold a million worldwide, Zoo Tycoon has sold 10 times that, and even non violent adventure games, like The Longest Journey, released in 2000 has continued to sell by word of mouth and now has 8 million sales. Sure Half Life 2 will sell 4 million, but it won;t continue to sell so it matches non violent games that sell for much longer.

Let's just remember, Neverwinter Nights 2 was thrown out of the PC games chart after just 3 weeks by a RE-ENTRY(!) of a puzzle game called Bejewelled 2 - that one statistic alone shows the change in PC gaming and the publishers just don't get it - hence declining sales in PC games. And with the increasing interest in retro gaming and independent gaming and these Sims and Tycoon games that do not need high end PC's, we have also seen a decline in home PC sales in both the UK and the USA to the tune of around 30% in just 2 years.

This and more statistics show how the PC gaming market has changed in the last 5 years and the media and industry don't understand it yet, and for that matter neither do most so-called 'hardcore gamers'. We're used to being at the centre of things. We're not any more. Whether the PC gaming industry and PC gamers will wake up before it's too late for the genre only time will tell, but the increasing negative attitudes to this constant violent software is one sign. You'd be hard put to name a AAA PC game released in the last couple of years from a major publisher that was not about violence, from Oblivion to Command and Conquer to Crysis, they are all about violence to solve problems. Whether against aliens or other humans. We need to change that.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

dark41 — 2007-06-22T02:08:39-05:00

Well there's definitely a niche for violent games, so we can't blame the developers for sticking with what sells. I've never seen the Sims, Civilization or Zoo Tycoon being played at a LAN party, and LAN parties get a lot of publicity.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

angryhipy — 2007-06-21T19:27:24-05:00

You know what games I really liked was Tomb Raider. The shooting part was OK but I liked the puzzle aspect best. As for Sims, Zoo Tycoon, I couldn't tell you who watches those. I know there are a lot of kids out there, whos parents adhere to the ratings on the games, so some of the zoo tycoon may be spill over from that. It would be interesting to see some paper work from the game makers on just what is their target audience for some of these games. And yes you're right my kid plays none of those games.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

John Ingram — 2007-06-21T17:14:43-05:00

But he probably wouldn't play The Sims, or Civilization, or Zoo Tycoon etc, either, so explain the huge sales of those titles then?

The average video gamer today is 28. And Cowboy movies or on TV channels everyday of the week in every country in the world. Someone watches them. And lastly, the X-Com: Enemy Unknown game didn't do too bad, and I don't think just sci-fi nuts bought it after word of mouth got out!

If you're saying don't try anything new, then we will definitely see the end of PC gaming. Because violent sci-fi and WWII FPS's and War based RTS's are just not cutting it for most gamers and potential gamers, hence the decline in PC game sales and fewer PC game releases every year.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

angryhipy — 2007-06-21T16:59:04-05:00

I don't know about you John, but I have a 19 year old who wouldn't watch a cowboy movie if you tied him to a chair. Unless he was a modern day cowboy packing a desert eagle, glock, mp5 or whatever hunting drug dealers, or armed coyotes crossing the border on his ranch land.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

John Ingram — 2007-06-21T16:52:26-05:00

Can we just understand something very simple:M Manhunt, Law and Order, Manhunt 2, that PS3 shooter in a church, etc, ARE NOT big sellers!!! The biggest PC sellers have been games like Civilization and The Sims and all it's add-ons and the Tycoon series, etc.

So as much as a few gamers like violent games, the vast majority are looking for something different. 10 years ago it got it. Today it doesn't, hence the decline in PC gaming in those 10 years!

So publishers - do drama, thriller, romance, puzzle, educational, business sim, adventure and the other genres that will sell as well as these incredibly violent games but garner a wider audience. And educational and Business Sims, before you say, do not have to be boring for nerds. For example: How about a simulation of running a ranch in 19th Century USA? Having to deal with buying cattle at good prices, buying land for good prices, dealing with rivals, dealing with rustlers, dealing with the cost of hiring 'guns' -y'know all the things we have seen in western movies for 70 years!

If I can have the ranch idea, why the heck can't publishers have 100 ideas?! Instead they go for violence, hype and cloning previous version of their games with just slight graphic upgrades.

If the PC games business doesn't wake up - there won;t be one in 3 years - mark my words!

Re: Re: A case against video games?

angryhipy — 2007-06-21T16:25:52-05:00

Violent games aren't going anywhere. Look at America's Army. I mean the game was developed by the US Army as a training tool to brainwash kids into thinking war is cool. That, and the lure of becoming an American "hero" and you got one 19 year old Call Of Duty fan boy laying dead in the dirt in a street in Falujjah. The Air Force people make sure the heads up displays in aerial combat games are realistic. These kids think it will be cool to go to war for real. They think it will be some counter strike scenario. But a look at the statistics for kids coming home with severe mental problems, tells you one thing I've known all along. Most kids aren't ready for war... In fact the only ones who are ready for it are the old farts who start them and don't have to see them first hand. And these guys talking about how video games make them commit crimes? Give me a break. It's their sorry wimp brains that make them do it not the games. Games don't kill people anymore than twinkies. It's all just a defense put up by lawyers. Sorry about the off topic rant.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

dark41 — 2007-06-20T13:46:39-05:00

And Sony just sent out a formal apology for having a shootout scene in a church?

I always thought that someday political correctness would bite us in the butt. These are all examples of people taking these games too seriously (of course everyone taking them too seriously has never even played a violent game), but I can't say I'll be sorry to see violent games go either.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

John Ingram — 2007-06-19T22:23:21-05:00

Today in the UK, the latest Law and Order game has been withdrawn from stores for using a video of a close circuit camera view of a boy being taken away, who was later killed in real life, and Manhunter 2 has been banned altogether by the British Board of Film and Game Censors who gives UK games their certificates.

So a black day for PC gaming and once again the media understands the stupidity of publishers who, in their ivory towers, have no idea any more. Hence the decline in PC gaming and the levelling in interest in video gaming generally!

Re: Re: A case against video games?

Dragon Peaceful — 2007-06-19T22:11:26-05:00

My view point on this issue, many months ago.
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/62702/#453261

Re: Re: A case against video games?

Brendan Gonsalves — 2007-06-06T19:03:51-05:00

McFly said:

I mean, just look at me ... I played the original Doom a countless number of times when I was 8, and I turned out fine ... I have no problem differentiating virtual simulations from reality:

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/67169/

LOL

I missed that post!

Gmod is pretty good. I tried it for about an hour but got bored of it.

I'm clearly not as creative as you are.

Re: Re: A case against video games?

McFly — 2007-06-06T03:30:43-05:00