Hardware Analysis Community Forums http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/ 2008-07-24T11:17:13-05:00 http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/ http://media.hardwareanalysis.com/halogo.gif text/html 2007-11-18T00:37:15-05:00 Vitaliy (Administrator) http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519484 Can we drop this conversation?<br /> <br /> I think everyone understands now what the intent of the article was, and what the intent of FUP is. For example, terrorism is illegal, but certainly there is no intention for FUP to prevent people from discussing 9/11 or other current events (other than the fact that it is off-topic for this site).<br /> <br /> We'll review FUP to clarify things. There is no need to cling to every word, they aren't the Constitution and we aren't arguing a case in the Supreme Court.<br /> <br /> EDIT: I'm locking this thread after deleting a handful of post after this one. If you'd like to discuss DRM or other digital rights policies please start a new thread in appropriate forum. Please refrain from attacking other forum members or staff. text/html 2007-11-18T00:30:17-05:00 FordGT90Concept http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519483 Sander Sassen said: <div class="quote">...dumber by the minute?</div><br /> You already betrayed your members and now you're making them out to be dumb. Respect and support for you is sinking faster than the Titanic.<br /> <br /> I really see one of two plausible solutions to this situation:<br /> 1) The all inclusive FUP is clarified to allow discussion of but not assisting or promoting of criminal activity (copyright infringement).<br /> 2) Article and subsequent threads deleted (as it is in violation of the existing FUP).<br /> <br /> The third and unfavorable solution is to keep the status quo and let it erode away at HWA. Some already jumped ship, more will.<br /> <br /> <br /> Fair Use Policy (FUP): <div class="quote">You will not use these forums to <u>violate any laws</u> nor to <u>engage in</u> or discuss <u>illegal activities</u> of any nature.</div><br /> <br /> Let's fill it in as it applies to this instance...<br /> Fair Use Policy (FUP): <div class="quote">You will not use these forums to <u>infringe upon copyright law</u> nor to <u>point to where copyrighted material may be obtained illegally</u> or discuss <u>piracy</u> of any nature.</div><br /> <br /> The last half of the article is the discussion of piracy as does the title and you suggested P2P technology as a means to obtain copyrighted material. The FUP, as is, caught your article in two violations. text/html 2007-11-18T00:21:17-05:00 CrAsHnBuRnXp http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519481 Sander Sassen said: <div class="quote">Hans Moleman said: <div class="quote">Sander Sassen said: <div class="quote">Mark,<br /> <br /> <div class="quote">You will not use these forums to violate any laws nor to engage in or discuss illegal activities of any nature. </div><br /> <br /> The 'of any nature' part clearly signifies that you're not to discuss how to crack a game, where to get serials, cracks, etc. A discussion about the act of piracy, or on piracy in general, is perfectly acceptable provided it does not mean you post direct links to clear examples of piracy, for example a link to a Crysis torrent. Obviously there's a bit of a grey area that needs further scrutiny, but I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we get there.<br /> <br /> Cheers,</div><br /> <br /> Software piracy is illegal. Discussing software piracy is discussing an illegal activity. On what planet do the words &quot;of any nature&quot; clearly signify that discussing the ILLEGAL ACT OF PIRACY is ok?<br /> <br /> If this thread were started by a member, I would have ignored it and waited for it to be locked or deleted. Moderators have consistently deleted threads like this since they violate the rules. I think that as the owner you should hold yourself to the same standard. <br /> <br /> Frankly, if I were a mod, I would have quit too. The fact that you not only encouraged illegal activities, but also lied in an attempt to get more attention, is unprofessional and really injures the reputation of this forum. Excuse it however you like, the facts speak for themselves.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> Sigh, sometimes I get the distinct impression people are getting dumber by the minute?<br /> <br /> It is not illegal to express your opinion about piracy, nor is it illegal to discuss piracy, heck it even isn't illegal to play the rol of the devil's advocate to provoke a discussion about piracy. <br /> <br /> However discussing piracy does *not* include making posts that lead other members to become pirates themselves, ie. specific instructions, how-to's, links to warez, etc, etc. <br /> <br /> Not allowing the discussion of piracy but for the manner described above, or express your opinion about the subject would be a direct violation of the fundamental right to express one's opinion and free speech.<br /> <br /> Best regards,</div><br /> I agree. It is NOT illegal to express your opinion nor discuss piracy in its state. However, when you have the FUP <b>state</b> that it is against the rules to even mention illegal downloading is what is coming into play here. Not the fact that everyone outside this forum can talk about piracy. Its everyone inside this forum that has to abide by the forum rules which states that you will not talk about nor engage in illegal activities in any nature. That includes discussing it. text/html 2007-11-18T00:16:40-05:00 CrAsHnBuRnXp http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519480 Sander Sassen said: <div class="quote">Mark,<br /> <br /> <div class="quote">You will not use these forums to violate any laws nor to engage in or discuss illegal activities of any nature. </div><br /> <br /> The 'of any nature' part clearly signifies that you're not to discuss how to crack a game, where to get serials, cracks, etc. A discussion about the act of piracy, or on piracy in general, is perfectly acceptable provided it does not mean you post direct links to clear examples of piracy, for example a link to a Crysis torrent. Obviously there's a bit of a grey area that needs further scrutiny, but I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we get there.<br /> <br /> Cheers,</div><br /> Then re-word the FUP. Because by what is quoted above, it states in laymen terms that there should not be any mention of it what-so-ever anywhere on the forum. Discussing how you may or may not pirate a game/movie/song/or whatever is still technically breaking the FUP. text/html 2007-11-17T23:54:20-05:00 Chris McGee http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519476 Sander Sassen said: <div class="quote">Sigh, sometimes I get the distinct impression people are getting dumber by the minute?<br /> <br /> It is not illegal to express your opinion about piracy, nor is it illegal to discuss piracy, heck it even isn't illegal to play the rol of the devil's advocate to provoke a discussion about piracy. <br /> <br /> However discussing piracy does *not* include making posts that lead other members to become pirates themselves, ie. specific instructions, how-to's, links to warez, etc, etc. <br /> <br /> Not allowing the discussion of piracy but for the manner described above, or express your opinion about the subject would be a direct violation of the fundamental right to express one's opinion and free speech.<br /> <br /> Best regards,</div><br /> <br /> Sander, you are right, it is not illegal to discuss piracy etc, it is, however, against the FUP of this site. The sentence 'I am just going to download Crysis off of a P2P network' not only tells people how to pirate copyrighted software, it positively encourages it when you consider your status as editor of the site.<br /> <br /> The explanation you posted earlier (The 'of any nature' part clearly signifies that you're not to discuss how to crack a game) does not hold any water for anyone with a half decent command of the english language. If it meant do not discuss practical methods of software piracy, that it what it would have said. Do not discuss illegal acts of any nature is very clear and unambiguous and you have broken that rule.<br /> <br /> It's your site and you can do what you want with it but don't lie to us and don't try and play us for a bunch of mugs.<br /> <br /> edit: And yes, you can take this post as proof that people are getting 'dumber by the minute'. <img src="http://media.hardwareanalysis.com/smilies/smile5.gif" width="14" height="14" border="0" alt=":P" title=":P"> text/html 2007-11-17T23:37:37-05:00 Michel Merlin http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519475 The initial question brought by Sander Sassen (discussing the facts that many games, programs, musics, videos, are twice as expensive in some regions of the world than in others) was very important and interesting; it was an opening to discuss more widely on the utterly high prices, and the general scam from the powers in place.<br /> <br /> Sure pirating the game was bad (acting like thieves is never the efficient way to fight theft), but at least Sander Sassen admitted it, which could help the discussion.<br /> <br /> Too bad some jumped on him too harsh on this big yet secondary point, thus (advertently or not... hard to know: hypocrisy is always well disguised) overshadowing the main one: the scam of the big gov and com organisations selling or controlling the IP of games, software, music, movies.<br /> <br /> Even worse was that Sander Sassen, instead of admitting his fault, defended the indefensible, at the cost of adding new layers of lies, thus completely destroying the discussion, by diverting it from its initial and main subject - that he had appropriately brought himself!<br /> <br /> Versailles, Sun 18 Nov 2007 00:38:00 +0100 text/html 2007-11-17T22:41:13-05:00 Hans Moleman http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519473 Then perhaps you should do as others have said and rewrite your rules for this site. You can say &quot;Discussions that describe in vivid detail how to break the law are not allowed. Discussions which say I was pushed to illegally pirate a game and that I plan to use a p2p network for that purpose are excellent and belong on the front page.&quot; Perhaps that will avoid future confusion by those of us that are getting dumber by the minute after reading your posts. text/html 2007-11-17T22:20:49-05:00 DarK_SlayeR http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519471 Sander,<br /> <br /> This has been a very thought provoking topic. I applaud you sir <img src="http://media.hardwareanalysis.com/smilies/smile1.gif" width="14" height="14" border="0" alt=":)" title=":)"> text/html 2007-11-17T22:08:52-05:00 Sander Sassen http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519467 Hans Moleman said: <div class="quote">Sander Sassen said: <div class="quote">Mark,<br /> <br /> <div class="quote">You will not use these forums to violate any laws nor to engage in or discuss illegal activities of any nature. </div><br /> <br /> The 'of any nature' part clearly signifies that you're not to discuss how to crack a game, where to get serials, cracks, etc. A discussion about the act of piracy, or on piracy in general, is perfectly acceptable provided it does not mean you post direct links to clear examples of piracy, for example a link to a Crysis torrent. Obviously there's a bit of a grey area that needs further scrutiny, but I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we get there.<br /> <br /> Cheers,</div><br /> <br /> Software piracy is illegal. Discussing software piracy is discussing an illegal activity. On what planet do the words &quot;of any nature&quot; clearly signify that discussing the ILLEGAL ACT OF PIRACY is ok?<br /> <br /> If this thread were started by a member, I would have ignored it and waited for it to be locked or deleted. Moderators have consistently deleted threads like this since they violate the rules. I think that as the owner you should hold yourself to the same standard. <br /> <br /> Frankly, if I were a mod, I would have quit too. The fact that you not only encouraged illegal activities, but also lied in an attempt to get more attention, is unprofessional and really injures the reputation of this forum. Excuse it however you like, the facts speak for themselves.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> Sigh, sometimes I get the distinct impression people are getting dumber by the minute?<br /> <br /> It is not illegal to express your opinion about piracy, nor is it illegal to discuss piracy, heck it even isn't illegal to play the rol of the devil's advocate to provoke a discussion about piracy. <br /> <br /> However discussing piracy does *not* include making posts that lead other members to become pirates themselves, ie. specific instructions, how-to's, links to warez, etc, etc. <br /> <br /> Not allowing the discussion of piracy but for the manner described above, or express your opinion about the subject would be a direct violation of the fundamental right to express one's opinion and free speech.<br /> <br /> Best regards, text/html 2007-11-17T21:55:49-05:00 Hans Moleman http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519464 Sander Sassen said: <div class="quote">Mark,<br /> <br /> <div class="quote">You will not use these forums to violate any laws nor to engage in or discuss illegal activities of any nature. </div><br /> <br /> The 'of any nature' part clearly signifies that you're not to discuss how to crack a game, where to get serials, cracks, etc. A discussion about the act of piracy, or on piracy in general, is perfectly acceptable provided it does not mean you post direct links to clear examples of piracy, for example a link to a Crysis torrent. Obviously there's a bit of a grey area that needs further scrutiny, but I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we get there.<br /> <br /> Cheers,</div><br /> <br /> Software piracy is illegal. Discussing software piracy is discussing an illegal activity. On what planet do the words &quot;of any nature&quot; clearly signify that discussing the ILLEGAL ACT OF PIRACY is ok?<br /> <br /> If this thread were started by a member, I would have ignored it and waited for it to be locked or deleted. Moderators have consistently deleted threads like this since they violate the rules. I think that as the owner you should hold yourself to the same standard. <br /> <br /> Frankly, if I were a mod, I would have quit too. The fact that you not only encouraged illegal activities, but also lied in an attempt to get more attention, is unprofessional and really injures the reputation of this forum. Excuse it however you like, the facts speak for themselves.<br /> text/html 2007-11-17T12:32:13-05:00 Sander Sassen http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519411 Mark,<br /> <br /> <div class="quote">You will not use these forums to violate any laws nor to engage in or discuss illegal activities of any nature. </div><br /> <br /> The 'of any nature' part clearly signifies that you're not to discuss how to crack a game, where to get serials, cracks, etc. A discussion about the act of piracy, or on piracy in general, is perfectly acceptable provided it does not mean you post direct links to clear examples of piracy, for example a link to a Crysis torrent. Obviously there's a bit of a grey area that needs further scrutiny, but I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we get there.<br /> <br /> Cheers, text/html 2007-11-17T09:02:14-05:00 FordGT90Concept http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519401 I agree that prices for games are quite extortionate at release so I agree with Sander's article in general but, the moment I read &quot;<i>I am just going to download Crysis off of a P2P network</i>,&quot; I thought &quot;this guy is just demanding to get tackled by lawyers.&quot;<br /> <br /> This is a moral/ethical issue which is never black and white. The reaction seen is to be expected.<br /> <br /> <br /> Edit:<br /> Also, the title of the thread includes a past tense verb telling me the deed is already done...<br /> <div class="quote">How EA games <b>pushed</b> me to pirate Crysis</div> text/html 2007-11-17T08:57:45-05:00 angryhippy http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519400 First of all discussing <b>illegal activities</b> would be: &quot;Hey dude, go to such and such dot com for the best bootleg movie downloads&quot;, or &quot;I always steal my music from yada yada dot net.&quot; Discussing <b>activities that are illegal </b>shouldn't be illegal (banned), because these topics are in the news every day. Whether it be movies or music or games <br /> <br /> Next point. I can't believe the way you some of you are acting. It seemed somewhat apparent that Sander was taking the position of devils advocate, something I do as well quite often. A technique used quite frequently. Even in Corporate board rooms when brain storming ideas there is often a person who will play devils advocate to point out flaws or possible repercussions to the proposals that are being made to the board.<br /> <br /> Devils advocate is defined as:<br /> <b>1. devils advocate:</b> <i>One who argues against a popular cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply to make people discuss and consider it in more detail.</i> I think the issues he brought up are worth discussion sans the Animal Farm responses and regulations. text/html 2007-11-17T07:32:32-05:00 FordGT90Concept http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519398 Yes, the problems arise when things borderline copyright infringement. That hasn't happened in this thread or the article (not taking Sander's word's literally). We already discuss piracy quite frequently...there was a thread created not too long ago about an act passing which would make all P2P illegal. Those are topics worthy of discussion, as is the apparent extortion Sander focused on in his article. I too think that the FUP needs to be refined in this regard stating something down the lines of &quot;linking to, assisting with, or distribution of (only applicable if HWA allows uploads at some point) copyrighted material is strictly forbidden.&quot; What was quoted from the FUP is extremely broad. text/html 2007-11-17T06:08:13-05:00 Matt BillyBob http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/69523/?l=1#519396 Perhaps we need an amendment to the FUP then? What harm is there in allowing the discussion of piracy (insofar as it's effects or nature) on a forum, if the provision or direction to illegal material doesn't exist? Surely as a forum, we should be at least be amenable to the discussion of a wide range of topics (ie. piracy), so long as laws are not broken?