Hardware Analysis - Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Yuhong Bao — 2008-04-15T01:04:06-05:00

Sorry, that was a mistake. Please ignore

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Dustin Horne — 2008-02-01T19:53:53-05:00

Awesome! Now this is what I like to see....people are actually "Analyzing" things and formulating ideas about possibilities instead of just bitching.

W3.11WG networked well already; W95's success was drivers and marketing

Michel Merlin — 2008-01-31T07:46:46-05:00

DsL.Dilbert said

Bill Gates had the foresight to know the value of [TCP/IP] and delayed [Windows 95] so that it could be included... the situation of market share today for Microsoft and Apple might be different had Bill Gates not taken the extra time to include TCP/IP.

Networking with W3.11WG (Windows 3.11 for Workgroups) was just as reliable, and even easier, than with W95 - at least as long as you remained in MS networks, which was then the case for about everyone. Windows 95's real improvement was IMO (as I recalled on http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/70370/?o=40#525864 Wed 16 Jan 2008 17:20 GMT above) that it came with modern WDM 32-bit virtual drivers for 95% of the hardware then available. This was also IMO one of the most important real causes for W95's success (notwithstanding marketing causes). I don't think at all that just adding a complete TCP/IP stack in W95 caused a big change in 2008 market shares.

The above is only my rememberings. For more, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.1x#Windows_for_Workgroups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_95#Internet_Explorer

Versailles, Thu 31 Jan 2008 08:47:00 +0100, edited (phrasing) 09:44:30

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

DsL.Dilbert — 2008-01-31T02:50:57-05:00

Windows 95 was an important operating system in terms of success for Microsoft as TCP/IP was at that time growing very quickly. Bill Gates had the foresight to know the value of it and delayed the OS so that it could be included. It was released ahead of Apple's OS also integrating TCP/IP and as a result, was far more successful. Although it isn't a break or make type situation, the situation of market share today for Microsoft and Apple might be different had Bill Gates not taken the extra time to include TCP/IP.

Edit: Spelling, grammar and structure.

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Jonathan Huffaker — 2008-01-30T00:31:25-05:00

Heck, I agree, it was Win95 that really started the ball rolling big time, that and it's collaboration with AOL,Spyglass(who they snaked out of paying properly for Internet Explorer), and various other internet services.
98 was mainly a fix to the problems with 95 and with more multimedia support drivers.
Even till around 2004 I'd say 98se was the most stable game platform for the widest range of games in the pc field. Not perfect, but still...
BillGates really new how to get something for nothing and work his assets. I think at one point he must have been schoolling to be a lawyer, because he thinks like one or the people he listens to do. And the whole 2000 break up thing was probably because he p**sed off too many power players. But I'll grant him one thing, he took his hit and kept going.

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Lawrence O. Wilson — 2008-01-28T23:33:45-05:00

Hello, did I miss the boat somewhere along the line? I was under the impression that Hardware analysis was for getting support to resolve computer issues not a gossip column for everyone�s pet peeve. Some of the statements that have been written here, about Microsoft, could easily get someone before a court for liable.

Being that there are hundreds of millions of us on this earth, all with different looks, features, likes and dislikes, no two of us being exactly alike and each and every one of us with different opinions/ideas, there will always be both ends of the spectrum as far as any issue is concerned. For one million persons, you have one million different opinions!

As far as XP, VISTA, 2000, or NT 4.0, we are talking about a million lines or more of code. In my tiny life time, I know of nothing that man has made that functioned perfectly and last a humans life time without modifications or repairs and it still went to pot. Too, complaints about running support programs? Do any of you have an appreciation for the additional programing that gets called into play just so that you can go on line, that the OS has to support? DSN Name resolution, all the different network protocols, not to mention OSPF, EIRGP, RIPv1/or 2 TCP/IP with ongoing changes being made constantly. Has any of MS OS given you a message that TCP/IP Failed? Or that it cannot handle OSPF or EITGP? Too, you would really have issues if you had to know what sub program you need to start or stop relative to what you are doing. Actually, if you are qualified to judge what should run or not run, why arn't you working for MS or writing your own OS?

Actually, OS does a pretty good job, to run at all, considering that from the start the Motherboard has issues, they require BIOS up grades, for what reasons? Graphic cards, hardware drivers, all require up grades, for what reasons! None of the crap is functioning as it should be, from the start! Many so called power supplies belong in the trash can. Still, the OS stumbles along and manages to function even when the masses fail to make the needed driver upgrade that will hopefully fix serious issues or snatches the power cord out of the socket before the system completes shutdown. I will not even go into thoes reulting issues.

If you cannot write the code to fix or better what you are fussing about, nor have a clue to what the development entails then just SHUT UP until you bother to unlearn something!

No, MS does not have to maintain OS support for any OS, any longer than MS chooses to. Are you going to pay the personnel/infrastructure costs?

I wonder how many of you jumped on any car maker when a part/parts failed and peopled died or lost parts of their body? Has some one died because VISTA/XP didn�t function exactly as they thought it should function?

If all is so bad, why not go back to pencil and paper, the material cost is a lot cheaper and all the errors will be only of your own doing! Too, you will not have worry about Spy Ware, viruses, your papers being hacked or someone sneaking into your living room to see what you are writing!

Nobody has to buy VISTA! No one has had their life threatened if they do not buy it. VISTA IS MICROSOFTS NEW OPERATING SYSTEM! If you have an issue with the way something is done or functions, then you should have a very realistic, workable solution to resolve the issue otherwise you are just bitching, and are actually a hindrance to productivity. In the real world, on the job, you can get fired for that or at the lest, get on the very bad side of your supervisor/boss.

No one that currently has a functioning computer has to buy VISTA! Too, there are very few reasons to change/buy a new operating system: What you want to do, your current system will not do it and the new OS will, and YOU want that capability. You require support but the system is no longer supported. Organization/job requires you to utilize the same OS. And the last reason is: YOU WANT THAT Software! If you do not fall into either of those categories, why buy any new software?

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Dustin Horne — 2008-01-28T21:29:34-05:00

Windows had a simple OS for most users with the Windwos 3.* OS's and developed these for the better GUI - Windows 98

What happend to Windows 95?

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Rory Witham — 2008-01-28T17:54:58-05:00

Sanders has made a good point with his post, a few year late TBH when you take a look back into the 80's there were 3 main computer systems and OS type; IBM, Apple Macintosh, and Windows.

IBM systems were generally heading for business and programmers ( which is where the ZX specturm came in) but this type of OS went as more people wanted home computers. The birth of Home computers came in the form of the ZX and the commador systems but these seamed to head for teh consols that we have now, with only Windows and Mac's keeping the business sector and home entertainment.

as people purchased their computers there was a distinked choice, Apple and Windows, bearing in mind that both companies had about the same amount of software titles.

Windows really made a head way by getting more software handed to it, this may have been due to coding for the OS.

Mac have kept a simaler OS GUI over the years and then its comes down to the sale price of the computers, Windows cheap; Mac's exspensive. if the roles were reverced we would have seen Mac's taking a lead. If memory serves me correct, it was in 1991 that this divide was formed.

Windows had a simple OS for most users with the Windwos 3.* OS's and developed these for the better GUI - Windows 98. windows then had Windows ME and shortly after Windows 2000 which was based on the NT 4 OS that was developed for business users and networking. MS dragged the OS's together to make a stable OS for all users which was to become Windows XP due to the fact that the hoe users OS were unstable and they could fix it.
So from Windows 98 to XP was back peddling to get a OS that actually worked and worked well.

AS you can see there was no deleopment from MS in quite a few years as the R&D was spent fixing what they had.
When the internet took off we saw the brith of Linux which was based on the UNIX systems, this system was quite close to the old Mac code base.

We are left with three choices, Mac, Windows of Linux.
Two charge for the service and linux dosent.

As Sanders pointed out many companies have there fingers in the pies and are spreading. IT has move more to the online that to the purchasing of software, yahoo's mail ( may be in beta) is one example then you have office live from MS.

Google has come up with a few good bits of software that makes working with things that much easier.

When vista came out the first thing I noticed was that it was robbed from a range of tools and software from the internet. So as said MS is playing catch up.
There are very few computers on teh market selling with Linux and people who have tried linux in the past may be a little wary about buying a linux system, in patituclar the software that they would like to use or have used for some time may not work, there is windows emulator...

With out software that people have become to know use and trust windows will have some hold on the market. So MS are in a balance between the software designers and there OS, in reacent years people are fed up with using a windows OS and the problems that comes with it. if software stopped being windows based, I think that we could say the curtain would surely fall on Windows.

Not forgetting the GUI is only a small part of the operating system so looking and what the systems actuially do are two different things; Im sure many would agree, windows, Linux, and Mac's is just a pretty from for a DOS based system. (ok its a little more)

If all companies went back to the drawing board and did not rely on software programes, We would proberly see a whole new OS that would be considerably better.

We could has Voice activated computers, and body map mouse systems, but in time and cost cutting they all seam to pull bits from there old OS's for the systems and this is holding everyone back...

The question really should be, who is going to take the first step? a computer software/ programe designer is not going to make a OS just so that teh game can play or the hardware will work correctly. (stalemate)

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

DublinGunner — 2008-01-28T16:21:52-05:00

ian elliott said:

To be fair one and half years is a long time and he knows how to use Vista but doesn't like it, he hates having to apply all the tweaks to get stuff to run. People say it was like XP it wasn't. Within six months we all had XP in my family. ME was so bad. After a year and a half of using XP you didn't want to go back at all. I hope the next OS is better. I may skip Vista altogether myself. I haven't used it at all. XP does everything I want.

He obviously doesnt like fit for his own reasons, whatever they may be.

I initially didnt like some of the early beta builds, but as later & later builds came out, it really began to grow on me. I now use Vista full time, even though I have XP Pro x64 on another partition, I never boot into it, and IMO that was my favourite OS ever (as its built of Server 2003), so that must surely say something too, no?

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

ian elliott — 2008-01-26T20:47:51-05:00

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Dustin Horne — 2008-01-25T20:35:39-05:00

I have mixed feelings as well. Your father may want to go back to XP. I personally like Vista...but to be honest, I want to go back to Office 2003 (since upgrading ot 2007). But, the real reason is...I hate the ribbon bar, I have to learn some things all over again. Honestly, it may be better, it may be easier for new users. It's harder for me BECAUSE I have the years of experience using the old style. But...I accept change...and I'll adapt...and a few years from now, I won't know hte difference.

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

ian elliott — 2008-01-25T17:23:31-05:00

Soul1601 said:

just to add to this whole XP > Vista thing, I'm building a PC for a client now, an they opted to have hardware able to run vista, but insisted XP be on the system. As they have heard so many complaints from co-workers/friends that they don't want it. It's bad when the "average joe" who normally wants the "Latest and greatest" has been steered away from Vista. They (MS) are going to have some work a head of them turning that around.

My father who was has Vista on his lastest machine, wants his next build (quad core system) to go back to Window XP. He is an experienced user (over 20 year of PC use). He has used Vista for a long time (year and half) and wants to go back to XP. He's never gone back before to an older O.S. That's got to tell you something.

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Jonathan Huffaker — 2008-01-23T02:44:58-05:00

Pardon, but there were definitely a few things that were stated as truths, that I believe to be more opinion. Yet, I guess that could be just MY opinion. So, since all are giving their view of the situation with MS, I'll pitch in.
It seems that Microsoft is expected to cover all the bases since they are probably the largest computer software company, and have been for more than a decade. Is that fair? Yes and no. The company itself is bloated much like their new operating system. Though if you only use top of the line equipment and software, you might not notice this. This happens with EVERY large company, that they hire people they know to fill possitions that don't have as many demands on it as it did when the business was still relatively new. Even with new innovations coming out, they have to get dozens of "go aheads" to keep it from being archived(buried), then have to work out all the 1000's of compatibility issues that come up. This has happened with EVERY operating system that has ever been produced. Yet, we continue to be surprised or upset when it happens. The only thing that bothers me, is that both the individual program companies and the OS developers are less inclined to make sure it's completely compatible anymore BEFORE they get it out on the market. And everyone wants to utilize the market's NEWEST hardware to it's max to show how cool the program is, yet all it does is make it incompatible with last year's model of computer, or if not incompatible, then at the very least difficult to use, and most of the new functions would bog down the older systems.. I know of at least one system it crashed completely because the system was just too old, being 5yrs old, and all she did was put the disk in. Personally, I'd love it if the OS, checked the system it was going on and loaded to suite the system. Yet, instead of compatibility, they are more worried about piracy and security, which are legit concerns for them, but with the economy the way it is I'm guessing most of the "pirates" aren't "pirating" for profit but so they can have something they couldn't afford otherwise. Which means, it's only the jerks who try to make money off it that are actually costing the company money.
Yet, now why is it the pirates that I have to look to to find an update for windows 95 or 98, or games that have gone out of circulation? Because everyone wants you to buy the new stuff..Longevity means nothing in our society anymore. I have a computer from every(5yr) generation but the most recent dual & quad core systems. But it takes a dual or quad core to run vista properly to it's fullest extent. Personally, I think they should do like the one OS was doing, and sell only what people need. Meaning, sell a stripped down version that has all the drivers you might need to set up your system, including legacy drivers, making it compatible with older systems. Then, have a networking package, student package, teacher package, small business package, corporate package, Entertainment package, Gaming package, and Internet/security package. You might think they are doing this already, but they aren't, I'm talking about an add-on, not an OS. And the price should match the income market, not property values. Like a new OS shouldn't have doubled price in less than a decade while the people's wages that they are selling to have only gone up 5-10%. But Microsoft has always been a bit pricey. And EVERY business seems to be trying the same tactic of upping their prices so they can LATER pay their employees more, so how can we complain about one greedy jerk without complaining about them all.
I would have to agree though, whether Vista is a good OS or not, it's the perception that matters, and many people heard of the initial problems that people had loading it and running programs, and they didn't like it, while others had no problem with it. I just don't appreciate more programs running in the background that you don't even know what the heck they are doing. With out real innovations though, I would think they won't last more than another couple decades, max. Coasting is a dangerous thing.

Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Dustin Horne — 2008-01-16T22:40:36-05:00

Criticizing Microsoft isn't forbidden by any means. Those knuckleheads have done plenty to be criticized for, but they should be backed factually and not with assumptions drawn from scattered experiences (i.e. assuming that since something is broken, or was for an extended period that it was intentional). The fact of the matter is, they have specific priorities. Fixing CD recognition in WMP may not be high on that list in comparison with other items. That doesn't mean their priorities are correct, it just means they're different.

In fact, Microsoft in the past has held too tightly onto their proprietary nature. To get back on the topic of "innovation" I do applaud them for some of their current projects. Silverlight seems very promising so far, allowing easy separation of developer and designer (something not as easily accomplished with Flash) and is positioned to be a pretty big powerhouse in "pretty" pages with a workhorse in the backend. Also, if you're not familiar with XNA, this is a really exciting project. Since the XBox360 runs on a modified version of the .NET Compact Framework, they have started opening things up to allow anyone to develop games. In fact, they offer a subscription service that allows you to publish your games online. You can use XNA studio (VB or C# for PC, but C# only for XBox) to write games for the PC or for the XBox 360. You can easily integrate with Studio Max, Blender, Maya, or XSI. I think this is pretty innovative.

Now...I too have a couple complaints. It has taken MS until Windows Vista to finally get a Hibernate feature to function (and resume!) properly. Microsoft also likes to announce lots of great new features (like WinFS) that never come to truition. You also see this alot with the .NET framework pre-releases. They'll have controls and functionality that don't end up getting rolled out in the final release (or even at all in some cases). Although it's been fixed, the Excel multiplicaiton bug (http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/24/2339203&from=rss) was a huge boo-boo on MS's part. And quite frankly, UAC is the one feature I despise in Vista (oh..and migrating profiles on a domain between XP and Vista isn't a smooth process either).

But...on the same token, I don't expect anyone to be perfect. Different things appeal to different people. If I was strictly a graphic artist, you'd probably see me using a Mac. Although I do some graphic / 3D work, I also do a lot of networking and development and I don't feel it provides me the necessary tools. I will criticize Mac for the PC attacking ads. I see those and I feel the same way I feel about politicians that go on the attack against other politicians...but as far as a software package, I won't criticize it...it has it's place.

You also won't see me screaming for the OS to go open source. Open source has it's place and I'm glad we have it. It helps create competition and keep prices down from what they really could be, but I don't want everyone knowing exactly how my PC ticks. That would open it up to more vulnerabilities.

Besides...closed source = more money, and that's what capitalism is about. I also enjoy being able to get support. Linux = free, until you need to add a support package to a distro. And I'm also deathly afraid that letting anyone who wanted to tinker away at Windows to do so could yield some nasty results. I don't mind KDE or GNOME for their purposes, but for my every day needs, their not the most aestetically pleasing desktop alternatives out there. In fact, nearly every Linux GUI I've seen has been pretty ugly. That doesn't mean it's not functional, I just prefer a little more soothing approach.

There are goods and bads to every solution. None are perfect, and you just need to choose the one that's right for you. There's nothing wrong with touting the one you like and nothing wrong with pointing out what you don't like about the other; just don't make accusations without factual basis.

Thx for the links provided

Michel Merlin — 2008-01-16T22:16:47-05:00

Thanks A_Pickle for the links you provided. I will read them (no time now).

Otherwise I find normal that you question and discuss me and I am sorry that you are upset at my questioning and discussing you. I thought a forum (or discussion board) was meant to discussions. I know however that in 2008 discussions are in facts oriented, allowed in one direction and forbidden in the opposite (e.g. really criticizing Microsoft is actually forbidden), I apologize for having momentarily forgotten it.

Versailles, Wed 16 Jan 2008 23:16:55 +0100