Hardware Analysis - GOD BLESS WHO?

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

Gerritt — 2008-07-09T00:17:03-05:00

There was a time when I identified myself as being Agnostic (yes with a capital A), but then I realized that Agnostisism is a religeon of it's own.
It's kind of like "I thought that I was a Non-conformist, but decided I didn't want to belong to that club".
I think it ultimately comes down to what I believe in, whether that be science, or any religion; they're pretty much the same. The thing I'm trying to point out is; No matter what your belief system, you should be able to discuss it in a reasonable manner, no matter what it is.
When anyone goes into, "YOU'RE WRONG", because of the details, or even the broad aspects of belief, then anyone saying that is most likely....WRONG.

Gerritt

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

MrBungle — 2008-07-08T15:12:13-05:00

DsL.Dilbert said:

So, you're comparing Religion to the brain-washing tactics of extremist Islamics?

You have completely missed the entire point of what I said.

What I was trying to say is that good people can be made to do bad things and they will do these bad things willingly and that this is often done for religious reasons. Most of the time we see this on the extreme fringes of a religion but it is undeniable that the motivations for these acts is religious in nature. I was not trying to imply that religion was the source of all evil, or that all religious people are necessarialy evil.

DsL.Dilbert said:

I myself am an Agnostic, but by saying what you have, you've insulted a good number of my friends. Religion isn't about blind faith to be rid of logic or reasoning.

Faith by definition is something that is rid of logic or reasoning. At their core religions will require you to believe some claim that cannot be proven or scientifically tested. (which is why the are still around) If you were to pull out everything that had to be taken on faith from any religion you would not have a religion left just a collection of stories, proverbs, and moral guidelines.

So without sugar coating anything religion does require belief that is "rid of logic or reasoning".

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

DsL.Dilbert — 2008-07-08T14:05:55-05:00

Jim H said:

DsL.Dilbert said:

You just answered your own question.

Religion does not require logic, reasoning, or justification for any actions it demands of its followers. It instills fear of that which is beyond death in order to get a strangle hold on its followers, and uses this fear in order to make those who would otherwise not hurt a soul send their own children on one way trips into busses and crowded shopping centers to kill themselves and as many others as possible, and at the same time get these people to feel a sense of pride and accomplishment for commiting such atrocities. Nothing but religion could ever hope to get this kind of blind un-waivering allegance. An evil man can do evil things but it takes religion to make a good man do evil things.

This of course is not to say that all religions are equal in their ability (or desire) to cause such damage to civilization. Some while being equally grounded in un-proven and or un-testable superstions are quite benign.

So, you're comparing Religion to the brain-washing tactics of extremist Islamics? I myself am an Agnostic, but by saying what you have, you've insulted a good number of my friends. Religion isn't about blind faith to be rid of logic or reasoning. An educated religious person knows what is fact and what is story, and most people I have met, are that. Just because you've seen examples of extremists, radicals or zealots on the television doesn't mean that's the case for all religious people. In fact, they are in the minority compared to benign followers of faith who simply want to lead better and more spiritual lives.

Yes, sometimes, the Religious texts don't make sense and it's hard to intrepret the true meaning. Ultimately, that's what separates the good from evil: your intentions for your intrepretations of religious texts.

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

MrBungle — 2008-07-08T06:44:09-05:00

DsL.Dilbert said:

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

DsL.Dilbert — 2008-07-07T22:51:04-05:00

Jim H said:

DsL.Dilbert said:

By the way Plug & Play, religion is often the scapegoat for the inherent evil found in people who act on those evils. Additionally, intepretations of religious texts can often be twisted to suit the needs of those evil people. Blaming religion is very much like blaming firearms for murder. It's like that saying: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

I disagree, evil people will do evil things... in these cases Guns, crowbars, baseball bats, things of that nature are simply used as tools to more efficently perform the task at hand. Religion however can make otherwise good people do evil things... religion effects the mentality and world view of a person, guns and other things that can be used as weapons do not.

How do you figure that religion will make otherwise good people do evil things? Religion isn't inherently evil, however, the improper or twisted intepretations of religious texts can be. This in turn, makes it easier for a person to commit evil since they feel it's justified because of their warped conclusions based on texts. In a sense, that's exactly like a physical weapon. The person might not have commited evil in the first place without the means or in this case, justification. Ultimately, it is the people of Religion who commit evil. Again, blaming Religion is very much making it a scapegoat for your own screw ups or evil doings.

Gerritt said:

...but why limit it to Christian, Islam, and Jewish beliefs?

This is why I said "religion of choice" as the last option. I was trying to be inclusive without having to type an exhaustive list of religions I can think of from the top of my head since there are more even after that.

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

MrBungle — 2008-07-07T15:34:04-05:00

DsL.Dilbert said:

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

Gerritt — 2008-07-06T05:00:54-05:00

Dilbert,
I think you touched on a relevent point, but why limit it to Christian, Islam, and Jewish beliefs? We should be just as inclusive of the Hindu, Shinto, Buddist, Zoasterist, Wicaan, et al. It is not the BELIEFS that are at fault, but the codifying bodies of these beliefs, i.e. Religions.
As long as you aren't going to sacrifice people, or MY dog/cat/lizard, or dance naked on MY lawn, etc., shouldn't everyone be allowed thier own beliefs?

Your point, as is mine, is that RELIGIONS seem to be exclusionary vs. inclusionary, thus our sense of separation from our fellow humans.

A very good read for open minded people is "Job, A Comedy of Justice" by Robert E. Heinlein (heck almost everything he wrote is good). Unfortunately, while he (REH) pointed out the futility of religious and sexual (in his later writings) type casting, he was still a nationalist at heart, so I don't support him for sainthood, but he was an extremely open minded person for someone of his timeframe and upbringing.

I think that one of the problems in the modern world is that with the wealth of information out there, we have become a bit lazy and complacent. A lazy and complacent populus is easily controlled. Read. Discuss. Take part in civics. Until the people being controlled, recognize that they are being controlled, we are doomed to continue the cycles of the past, well into OUR future.

Gerritt

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

DsL.Dilbert — 2008-07-06T04:22:29-05:00

I personally believe an ideal "Christian/Muslim/Islamic/put in religion of choice" person is not one that necessarily believes in a deity or deities, but a person everyone can emulate without the fear of being persecuted to hell or a darker place just because you don't believe in said religion. Unfortunately, this "Religious Utopia" of sorts will never be the case.

By the way Plug & Play, religion is often the scapegoat for the inherent evil found in people who act on those evils. Additionally, intepretations of religious texts can often be twisted to suit the needs of those evil people. Blaming religion is very much like blaming firearms for murder. It's like that saying: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

Gerritt — 2008-07-05T04:32:20-05:00

You got my point exactly!
Thank you.
I was just trying to point out that this discussion has been reletively free of flames so far.
Isn't it interesting that a forum that has been so flame inducive, that this one hasn't been so far (knock on wood)? So mayhap we have a group of like minded individuals that can start to make of difference in the REAL world? Ask the questions, but not be inflammitory, or closed minded? A church is not necessary, but the continued reasonable conversation about our differences, IS. If we have to, having a new church without a dogma or without a specific criteria for our relationship with each other or God, may not be a bad thing.

Gerritt

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

KM — 2008-07-04T08:35:27-05:00

LOL @ Gerrit.

Who"ll lead the Church Of HWA??

And what will it's tennets be?

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

Gerritt — 2008-07-03T21:18:11-05:00

Hmm,
How about:
The New Reformed Church of HWA.....
Has a ring to it, but NRCHWA looks ugly...

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

MrBungle — 2008-07-03T21:10:20-05:00

Gerritt said:

As relates to your point though, it seems that the training and education on many levels is geared more towards reenforcing these primative reactions rather than overcoming them....sigh.

Without a doubt. I can' tell you how many times I had people completely thumb their nose at evidence or alternate explanations and tell me something like "I know you're wrong because (insert holy book here) says this and it must be right because its the word of (inserte deity here) the creator of the universe!" They won't even for a second consider the possibility that they could be wrong or that the entire system they follow could be a complete fabrication.

It amazes me when people can be so skeptical about everything in their lives, looking to science for answers, trusting with their lives vehicles designed with equations and theories, and yet when it comes to something of a religious nature they shut all that off and follow blindly and call me arrogant or narrow minded for examining things from mulitple points of view. *shakes head* I don't get it?

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

Gerritt — 2008-07-03T20:37:32-05:00

KM,
I was unaware that I was quoting Saint George.
If I'd known I'd have given the proper respect.

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

Plug & Play — 2008-07-03T09:06:04-05:00

RELIGION IS THE WORST BELIEF EVER INFLICTED ON MAN....IT IS THE ROOT OF SO MUCH TROUBLE. :o" title=">:o">

Well that and the whole ATI vs nVidia....and Intel vs AMD.....Ahhh you get where this is going...

Re: GOD BLESS WHO?

Plug & Play — 2008-07-03T09:04:04-05:00