Hardware Analysis - 4870 X2 R700 Preview

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-25T07:41:22-05:00

Gerritt said:

The exact opposite of what the D3D folks at MS are doing.

Yeah. That basically sums up D3D and OGL's history in one sentence. They never really worked hand in hand.

I doubt many, if any cards, support double precision in regards to graphic rendering. Even if they did, it would choke up all these half-assed x86-64 computers very quickly. It is good they are leaving it an option for the future though because its time will come eventually.

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

Gerritt — 2008-07-25T03:25:37-05:00

It is interesting that while MS is incorporating a 32 bit floating point requirement into DX10.1, while the OpenGL folks have removed the requirement for double percision FP from OGL3, even though it has been supported in previous supplementals. It may be re-incorporated into a OGL3 supplimental in the future.
The rational for the removal of this from the standard? According to the OGL-ARB (Architectual Review Board) is that it has not been utilized, and in the future when utilized can be incorporated into a supplemental if necessary in the future. What the OGL folks are doing is providing a template for more efficient graphics rendering without REQUIRING major HW upgrades, while providing a path for support of new HW when it comes out. The exact opposite of what the D3D folks at MS are doing.

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

Darkie — 2008-07-25T02:32:12-05:00

Direct3D 10.1 is an incremental update of Direct3D 10.0 which is shipped with, and requires, Windows Vista Service Pack 1.This release mainly sets a few more image quality standards for graphics vendors, while giving developers more control over image quality.It also adds support for parallel cube mapping and requires that the video card supports Shader Model 4.1 or higher and 32-bit floating-point operations. Direct3D 10.1 still fully supports Direct3D 10 hardware, but in order to utilize all of the new features, updated hardware is required.

Quoted from Wikipedia.

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

DsL.Dilbert — 2008-07-25T01:39:52-05:00

FordGT90Concept said:

DarK_SlayeR said:

But why be p**sed if a game doesn't support DX10.1? All that means is "Native 4x AA support"... not ground breaking since... errm... all major releases have AA support now...

Damn Microsoft. DX 10.1 is basically the equivilent to what is running on the Xbox 360 then. Like NVIDIA said, ta hell with it.

I'm still using DX 9.0c. No complaints from me. Also, later this year, OpenGL 3.0 should make its debut. It could put Direct3D 10 to shame. Most games may run on DirectX but they are developed on OpenGL...

I believe the ATi HD 4000 cards have the same setup with a small amount of memory set away attached to the main core via high-speed bandwidth lane for the purpose of "free" anti-aliasing, improved z-buffering, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't remember exactly where I read that. It might have been the Anandtech's or Hardware Canucks review on the HD 4870.

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

Gerritt — 2008-07-25T00:56:17-05:00

From Korval (OpenGL Guru on opengl.org)

16 bit floating point support is now a requirement for textures and renderbuffers. Supporting texture filtering and blending is still optional for these formats.

From k_szczech (OpenGL Pro on opengl.org)

FP16:
GeForce FX, Radeon 9, Radeon X - no filtering, no blending
Radeon X1 - blending supported
GeForce 6, 7, 8, Radeon X2 - filtering and blending supported

So basically if you implement HDR you have to provide one implementation for GeForce 6/7/8 and Radeon X2 and one separate implementation for Radeon X1.

Additionally it has been stated by the OGL-ARB that any HW that presently supports OGL2.1 will support OGL3.
So please, enough of this DX9/10/11/..27 stuff.... Its apples to oranges.

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-24T14:43:00-05:00

DublinGunner said:

Clearly showing that Quadro and professional hardware is based completely off their desktop products i.e. desktop products (i.e DX based) drives their business plan.

Based, yes. Workstation cards start with your basic GPU having support for DX9, DX10, and OGL 2.1. From that, they extend OGL performance by prioritizing the OGL code paths rather than DX. As a result, DX performance declines while OGL increases. Workstation is pretty much synonymous with OGL while desktop is synonymous with DX.

OGL-based hardware costs a lot more but it is also far superior to DX in what they are used for (development, render farms, etc.). Most businesses have no problem spending $2000 on a single FX5500 card or $100,000 Tesla render farm. They can't afford to ignore the business from those investors.

Again, this is irrelevant. Just don't expect existing 4000 series Radeons or GTX 200 series GeForce cards to have any OGL 3 capabilities just because they have DX10 hardware.

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

DublinGunner — 2008-07-24T14:27:08-05:00

FordGT90Concept said:

OGL caters to a broad crowd with far more demanding needs (even the film industry renders a lot of their stuff using Linux/OpenGL). DirectX is almost strictly for gaming. Because OGL hasn't changed in so long, DirectX has taken up all the air time. How manufacturers approach the new OGL specs remains to be seen. Implying that OGL needs to work off of DirectX hardware is purely speculation. Since OGL is the more complex of the two, it makes sense for hardware to cater to it first and DirectX second. Like DirectX 10, it will take a while for OpenGL 3 to catch on.

But Ford, you keep missing the point. Its not some thing between OGL and DX, jst that the new OGL will take advantage of features present on DX10 class hardware.

And how long OGL 3 takes to catch on is purely software dev dependant.

If hardware manufacturers were to create new hardware to support OGL 3, it would be probably 3 or 4 years before it would be available.

nvidia & amd(ati) make most of their cash on midrange, desktop boards. Enthusiast class, and workstation class cards make up a very small minority of their overall sales, thats why they will spend $400million+ on developing a card conforming to DX standards, but not OGL.

There are far more people playing games than working with workstation graphics.
http://www.dailystocks.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/727/

GPU Business revenue increased by 47% to $2.52 billion in fiscal year 2008

This improvement was primarily due to increased sales of our desktop GPU products and notebook GPU products.

PSB* revenue increased by 29% to $588.4 million in fiscal year 2008

Our professional workstation product sales increased due to an overall increase in shipments of boards and chips. This increase in shipments was primarily driven by our transition from previous generations of NVIDIA Quadro professional workstation products to GeForce 8-based products.

- Clearly showing that Quadro and professional hardware is based completely off their desktop products i.e. desktop products (i.e DX based) drives their business plan.

Hell, they make nearly 50% more with their MCP business:

MCP Business revenue increased by 7% to $710.4 million in fiscal year 2008

So $2.52 billion V $588.4 million

Hmm - which catagory of business would you say is the driving force?

*PSB = Professional Solutions Business

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-24T13:53:59-05:00

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

DublinGunner — 2008-07-24T12:38:10-05:00

FordGT90Concept said:

DublinGunner said:

Generally, OGL works the opposite way to DX. Hardware manufacturers design to API spec, wheras in OGL, the API is designed to hardware specs. (as OGL dont have the push to force implementation of features by hardware manufacturers).

I doubt that is entirely true because OGL is used by Apple, Linux, and pretty much every other non-Microsoft OS. In addition to that, the very expensive software (professional applications like Inventor and AutoCAD) is developed solely for OGL. As such, it wouldn't be wise to ignore their requests. The smaller crowd that is OGL has a lot more influence than the larger crowd (like gamers) that follow DX.

Remember, also, that your Quadro and Fire cards are pretty much strictly designed for OGL while GeForce and Radeon are designed for DX.

What has this got to do with OS???

As OGL spec has been the same for years, there is really no need to go designing a card around it - so stating that the workstation cards are 'designed' around it is compeltely wrong. OGL usually tailers its API to currently available hardware - which is why its so much beter at doing a lot of things than DX is - and its OS independant.

Differences between workstation & desktop cards is really only BIOS implementation (the main difference being the amount of viewports available). The cards are usually out on the desktop for quite some time before the Workstation variants are released (along with their specific drivers).

AMD & nvidia usually allow access to hardware features of the cards to OGL that might not necessarily be available to DX.

So while they certainly do not 'ignore' OGL, they most certainly do not design their cards around it, unlike DX.

ANd its certainly easier to code for the hardware, than to design hardware for the code

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-24T12:07:11-05:00

DublinGunner said:

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

DublinGunner — 2008-07-24T11:49:42-05:00

FordGT90Concept said:

It may not utilize any of the hardware in place for DX10. It is up to graphic manufacturers to decide how they are going to implement rendering of OGL and DX code.

It will. OGL3.1 will utilise geometry shaders, which are only available in DX10 class hardware, and further iterations will utilise tesselation etc, which currently is only available in AMD dx10 class hardware.

Generally, OGL works the opposite way to DX. Hardware manufacturers design to API spec, wheras in OGL, the API is designed to hardware specs. (as OGL dont have the push to force implementation of features by hardware manufacturers).

However, OGL drivers can allow access to hardware functionality not even available in DX on accoasion

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-24T11:11:44-05:00

It may not utilize any of the hardware in place for DX10. It is up to graphic manufacturers to decide how they are going to implement rendering of OGL and DX code.

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

DublinGunner — 2008-07-24T11:04:13-05:00

FordGT90Concept said:

I highly doubt OGL will touch any aspect of DirectX meaning what version of DirectX a card supports is completely irrelevant to what version of OGL it will support. You should be able to use OGL without DirectX even installed (obviously impossible on Windows but, for example, on Linux).

We probably won't be seeing OGL 3 graphics cards until at least 2009.

You misread my posts. I never stated OGL requires anything related to DX, merely DX class hardware.

OGL3.0 will utilise hardware functionality not found in hardware below DX10 class. (geometry shaders, tesselation for later iterations etc)

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-24T10:57:49-05:00

Re: 4870 X2 R700 Preview

DublinGunner — 2008-07-24T10:42:40-05:00

FordGT90Concept said:

OGL has its own specs being that it is competitive with D3D. Cards will probably have to be redesigned to use it but unlike D3D 10, OGL 3 will probably be backwards compatible with 2.5 because the Open group doesn't have much influence with the hardware manufacturers like Microsoft does.

I know it has its own specs (obviously, being as its a different API) but it WILL require DX10 class hardware (obviously putting some of the DX10 hardware specs to good use, or even making access to some hardware functionality even easier than DX does)

While indeed it is supposed to be backwards compatible with older versions (as OGL always has been) this will undoubtedly mean losing some functionality on older class hardware.

I believe there will be a few iterations of OGL3.0, to include OGL 3.1, 3.2, 3.3

AFAIK anything above OGL3.0 will require DX10 class hardware (as it uses functionality of DX10 hardware), but OGL3.0 will run on DX9 class hardware (i.e. GeForce FX and 9700 type hardware) but will obviously not have full functionality available.(or at least available hardware will be detected at runtime, and the code shuffled acordingly)