Hardware Analysis - Surge Protectors - Please Read

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Vitaliy (Administrator) — 2008-07-20T13:42:47-05:00

Topic locked while I figure out who needs a smack over their head..

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Tam the Bam — 2008-07-20T10:47:30-05:00

John said:

edit to add-
And jeez, Tam. If your "Who likes boobies?" and "Guys, guys, guys" posts don't bother me, I'd think you of all people would understand the difference.

The Boobies thread is not mine. That's McFly's. The guys, guys guys post was placed
in the off topic and I was under the influence at the time. I am not responsible for
any of my actions at that specific time!

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Gerritt — 2008-07-20T07:17:55-05:00

During the summer in Central Florida...yes.
Lightning capital of the US, if not the world.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Kieran Blenkarne — 2008-07-20T07:12:10-05:00

Wow, you guys have thunderstorms that much?

Epic.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Gerritt — 2008-07-20T06:37:52-05:00

John,
I do admit that it was facicious of me. Or making a feces of me.
It just looked like you were having a bad day of it.
You know you are aces in my book.
Even if this thread is redundant, and I admit it is, it is appropriate for folks in Florida right now, so a new thread though not necessary, is not the worst thing to happen in these fora.
Take care of yourself. I'll try not to be as mean spirited in the future, but no promises.

Gerritt
(edit) BTW, good info in your last post.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

john albrich — 2008-07-20T06:22:17-05:00

Gerritt said:

...As long as we are telling stories to tick off John...

Of course telling such stories does not tick me off (the humor behind the comment appreciated, Gerritt ). What eventually began to bother me was the personal tone and misrepresentations that started after I made an impersonal comment about the suitability of creating a redundant thread...on a common topic...something that I (and others) have in the past said re: other redundant threads.

Especially since this thread was created just 7 days ago and was addressing the equivalent story.

lightning struck - what do I have to do?
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/71982/

I simply expressed the belief that everyone would have been better served by searching for and continuing the discussion in that thread or similar "surge protector" threads instead of creating another redundant thread.

Regardless of my opinion, I'll contribute more to this thread.

As something that I hope helps someone, ensuring that people use surge protectors correctly means covering the details involved in at least the following broad-brushstroke categories associated with surge protection of home and business PCs. Incomplete implementation in any one of the hardware categories is enough to expose a "system" to electrical faults and possibly damage due to AC power (in-spec operation and faults), communication lines (in-spec operation and faults (including telco high-voltage "line drying")), or environmental factors (e.g. high outside temperatures, lightning, squirrels, birds, illegal radio operators, radio/TV/Ham broadcast stations, etc.) While that may bother some people, it's a technical reality, and skimping on the requirements will do no one any good.

Consider it similar to Anti-malware protection. Implementing a firewall does no good if that's the only thing you do.

It might not hurt to have an HWA "correct usage" sticky on surge protection as long as the expectations are clearly defined. Anyone writing a document with such an all-encompassing goal would have a non-trivial amount of research and writing to do and as Beatrice Kiddo might say, "a rather large obligation" to the reader. However, surge protector usage details have generally been covered in other HWA posts and at other technical and manufacturer websites that would be revealed by a good search engine. IMO, such a sticky would be largely derivative and redundant work.

Very important point: This list is off the top of my head, and should definitely not be considered all-inclusive under any circumstances. It is a starting point.

Some General Categories Affecting "Surge Protector" Usage
This is a list of some of the major factors contributing to correct and incorrect use of "surge protection" equipment in the PC environment. It is not all-inclusive and is intended as an overview.

Incomplete implementation of any one of the hardware issues and sub-issues covered in these categories is enough to expose a "system" to electrical damage due to AC power faults, communication line faults, or environmental factors.

The term "Surge protector" is intended as a general phrase that includes any electrial disturbance protection hardware, regardless of whether it is for "surges", "spikes", "droops", etc., or some combination of same.

*AC mains power connections
-All grounds to all equipment
-House external grounding method and integrity
-House AC mains ground/power connection verification (if the AC phase ground or plug is mis-wired/corroded/etc then it won't matter how many protection devices you have installed. AC plug mis-wiring even by licensed installers is a big problem in the real-world)

*Device power connections (same issues as AC mains)

*I/O connections (printers, network, modem, external hard drives, AC mains home network modems, etc.)

*Handling conflicting surge-protector connection advice from ISPs, anecdotal stories, utilities. (hint: commercial companies are more interested in protecting their equipment than yours)

*Active v. passive protection requirements

*Surge-protector aging/expiration

*Warranties and Supplemental Insurance (caveats and "gotchas", renters v. home-owners insurance, etc)

*Surge protector replacement protocols after adjacent/direct lightning strikes

*Specification details (e.g. joule rating, clamping voltage, response time, total energy dissipation, protection circuitry between all three wire combinations (l-g, l-n, n-g, etc), additional filters for line noise, etc)

*Periodic user surge-protector testing protocol requirements (monitoring indicators, circuit breakers, GFIs, connections, etc)

*Whole-house v. In-situ surge protection systems

*The myths of surge-protectors and lightning strike protection

*X-10 communication AC mains phase coupling devices (generically, this could include all zero-crossing AC line communications systems)

edit-add "supplemental insurance" item to "warranties" category

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Gerritt — 2008-07-20T04:52:41-05:00

Redundant or not, this post is very appropriate for the folks in Florida this time of year.
Juggernaught, If I were to turn off my systems every time a thunderstorm threatened, I've have to turn my systems off every single day between the hours of 2-6pm.
I have more isolators, surge protectors and line conditioners than I can easily count, yet I still take losses once every couple of years in my home office.
Next year I have budgetted for a complete facility line conditioning/isolation rig and a natural gas generator unit. The year after that I hope to be able to offset about 50% of my electric bill with a solar array.
In the meantime for those folks looking for good line conditioners and surge protectors both of the big UPS companies, APC and Tripplite make some good ones, but for top end performance, especially in A/V equipment you may also want to check out Panamax.

Remember, It's not enough to have just your computer and the lines into it protected, but all directly wired devices as well, this includes monitors, externally powered speaker systems, monitors and printers. Also, you shouldn't have anything that plugs directly into the wall even close to your computer, nor should your computer be too close to the wall socket, as in the case of a lightning strike a arc across can happen. I've seen this with a alarm clock and an oscillating fan.

As stated before, all the protectors in the world probably won't protect everything in the case of a direct lightning strike, and the age and specifications of your building may be a contributing factor as well. When I had my house built, I had a ground grid installed, that provides pathing from about 20 points on my roof to a multi-point grounding system that extends out 1m from the foundation on all sides. I've taken 1 direct and several close hits over the last seven years, but not had any catistrophic damage, while a neighbor without this optional system ended up with a wall fire when his wiring jackets melted and a 3' hole in his roof. Every single loss I've taken has come in via the TV cable (I've had the street run redone three times due to degrigation due to close strikes.

As long as we are telling stories to tick off John, I was in a customers building when it took a direct hit. I was in the room next to the network/telco closet. Talk about a fireworks show! Not only did it blow every circuit, and destroy every single computer, telephone or other electrical appliance, with the odd exception of 2 Lexmark laser printers, but the EMP wiped the backup tapes. Luckly the comptroller actually rotated the tapes off site on a weekly basis, so not that much data was actually lost, but it took at least a week to get their systems functioning again....thank goodness for Fedex and good insurance.

Speaking of insurance, I have a $100k rider on my policy to cover my electronics. Not cheap, even with a $1000 deductable, but well worth it.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-20T04:08:20-05:00

Adam Kolak said:

He has a good point, as many people only plug in their AC power plugs into the surge protector and not their phone lines or coaxial lines. While a surge over these lines are probably more rare, they are still worth protecting if your surge protector has these features.

I told you why they don't (point 3 above): ISP's order customers to plug modems directly into the wall. Considering most people don't even set up their own Internet connections (the ISP does), most don't even know that the ISP's advice is generally bad as it only covers their interest and not the consumers.

I'm shocked ISPs haven't be sued over advising customers to not protect their investment. They rebuke this by providing their own modems declaring that if your modem/bridge gets fried, it will be replaced at no cost to you; however, they conviently forget that surges tend to pass through more than just one device (e.g. from the bridge to your computer or network devices).

A lot of ISPs even demand that surge protectors in-house are useless because they have surge protectors on the lines...

I mean, yeah, they see what lightning does to electronics more often than most. Perhaps ISPs are correct in that surge protectors usually do not perform the job they are designed for. Kind of like how homeowners insurance won't back you on getting lightning rods for your house even though it could save a lot of money in damages.

My conclusion is that we really don't know jack about lightning beyond the voltage and amperage of a typical strike.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Adam Kolak — 2008-07-20T03:57:49-05:00

Give the man a break, he is just trying to tell a story from his experience and hopefully help someone out. He has a good point, as many people only plug in their AC power plugs into the surge protector and not their phone lines or coaxial lines. While a surge over these lines are probably more rare, they are still worth protecting if your surge protector has these features.

Thanks for sharing your story, Joshua

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-20T03:55:17-05:00

I won't dignify that ignorance with a constructive response as it will just be met with more ignorance.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Joshua Marius — 2008-07-20T03:48:37-05:00

When I say nothing, I generally agree. I pounce on the points I disagree with. It is just my personality.

You disagree with everything, and you can state facts all you want, anybody can read or Google, but the facts make you look unapproachable when it has nothing to do with what I said. This is an easy way to embarrass yourself and make it look 100% that you are just dying to say something against the thread, instead of just moving on to the next one. This also makes the forum uncomfortable.

How can you read somebody's experience and then make a statement like "please guys be careful, make sure you have this and that" - how in the world does that trigger ppl to say "Im safe! Nothing's gonna happen to me!!!". Just continues to amaze me how you twist that so that YOU can be right.

Jeez. now you can't even share an experience, or make an effort to prevent it from happening to other people. Way to go guys.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-20T03:33:09-05:00

Joshua Marius said:

This is your opinion and the way you see it.

There is a fine line between opinion and fact. The first point is coming from my ISP (Frontier Communications), a surge protector manufacturer (PowerSentry), and a friend of the family that works with a different ISP (division of Long Lines). The second point comes from another frequent poster's personal experience (Gerritt) and my own experience having taken a transformer hit twice. The third point comes from my experience with my ISP (Frontier Communications). I define "fact" as the dominant opinion.

Joshua Marius said:

You want to see it this way because of the obvious - a chance to have a say in this thread, to make your almighty presence.

I simply rebuked how your simple "suggestion" has holes (point 1 and 2) and may have actually occurred because of the ISP's recommendation (point 3). That flame I quoted is quite uncalled for.

Joshua Marius said:

What I said won't hurt anybody.

A false sense of security has resulted in many fatalities and not just in lightning strikes.

Joshua Marius said:

You are notorious for not agreeing with what anybody says. So with you, I can never be right no matter what I say. So I might as well just start agreeing with you now so we don't start another endless riot.

When I say nothing, I generally agree. I pounce on the points I disagree with. It is just my personality.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Joshua Marius — 2008-07-20T03:18:55-05:00

FordGT90Concept said:

Joshua Marius said:

How does it misinform the newbies?

Three reasons actually:
1) Nine times out of ten, the surge arcs from AC to phone lines so the device would be fried surge protected or not.
2) Lightning behaves in strange ways. You could spend hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to protect yourself from it and have the facility receive a direct hit destroying all electronic equipment on site. A surge protector can be helpful, yes, but you can never guarentee absolute safety from a strike. It comes down to a cost/benefit factor: Is it worth x number of dollars to have a y chance of preventing damage beyond the protector?
3) Internet service providers tell you to bypass surge protectors whenever you call them and never recommend using one in the first place so they may be the main reason what that lady didn't have protection on it (I'd guess some ISP tech rep plugged it in and she doesn't have a clue that the system is being exposed). It really is a conflict of interest there.

This is your opinion and the way you see it. Those above are not reasons because I never stated absolutely anything to disagree with what you just wrote. I just gave out suggestions. I didn't even recommend any types of products or gave instructions to do anything, once again, just suggestions. You want to see it this way because of the obvious - a chance to have a say in this thread, to make your almighty presence.

What you are doing is writing reasons for why surge protectors aren't as effective or why you cant predict their behavior, an argument mostly accurate, that has nothing to do with me. What I said won't hurt anybody. You yourself said they may help or they may not, so it does not hurt to tell a STORY, not a command, on what happened on one of my visits to a customer.

You are notorious for not agreeing with what anybody says. So with you, I can never be right no matter what I say. So I might as well just start agreeing with you now so we don't start another endless riot.

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

Kieran Blenkarne — 2008-07-20T03:14:17-05:00

LOL

the title of this thread sorta looks like its saying that all Surge Protectors need to read this.

Sorry, that was highly irrelevant.

bye

Re: Surge Protectors - Please Read

FordGT90Concept — 2008-07-20T02:58:22-05:00

Joshua Marius said:

How does it misinform the newbies?

Three reasons actually:
1) Nine times out of ten, the surge arcs from AC to phone lines so the device would be fried surge protected or not.
2) Lightning behaves in strange ways. You could spend hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to protect yourself from it and have the facility receive a direct hit destroying all electronic equipment on site. A surge protector can be helpful, yes, but you can never guarentee absolute safety from a strike. It comes down to a cost/benefit factor: Is it worth x number of dollars to have a y chance of preventing damage beyond the protector?
3) Internet service providers tell you to bypass surge protectors whenever you call them and never recommend using one in the first place. The ISP may be the main reason what that lady didn't have protection on it (I'd guess some ISP tech rep plugged it in and she doesn't have a clue that the system is being exposed). It really is a conflict of interest there.